flipper problem after 1h of play

Talk about anything that you would like.
cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:19 pm

The left flipper on my Stargate is working fine, but after 1h of play, it no longer goes back down completely.
It's not stuck in the up position. It just appears the spring is no longer strong enough to bring it back down.
The flipper stroke still feels normal, but I can't aim correctly anymore to the right side because of the angle.
When I come back the next day, the flipper is fine again for the first hour.
The flipper height is adjusted correctly, it is not touching the playfield.
How can I diagnose and fix this problem?
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Death Knight
Posts: 3201
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby sylvain » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:28 pm

Is that flipper coil overheating compared to the other side?
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:50 pm

The machine has been off 30 min now. The coils are both room temperature. I turned the machine on and both flippers work fine again.
I can't play for another hour today. Next time it happens I'll check for the coil temperature.
What should I check next after the temperature?
Thanks for the help.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
Splitskull
Admins
Posts: 3520
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:59 pm
Location: Mascouche, Qc.

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Splitskull » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:20 am

I would replace the sleeve. Or at least clean it good if you don't have a spare around. While doing that, you get the chance to see if anything doesn't look normal with the mechanism.


User avatar
Azatotht
Admins
Posts: 8451
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:32 pm
Location: Anjou (Montreal)
Contact:

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Azatotht » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:21 am

**Wearing my MrHide's suit**

SHOOT THE PYRAMID !
I am the monster that breathing men would kill.
I, am Dracula... (and you're not!)

sLaM_tIlT
MAACA Barbarian
Posts: 510
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:22 am
Location: Brampton, Ontario

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby sLaM_tIlT » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:28 am

My guess is there is not enough gap between flipper and flipper bushing. Should be a 1/16" gap.
Brent

___________________________________
SM
LOTR
WW
BSD
EBD

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:39 am

sLaM_tIlT wrote:My guess is there is not enough gap between flipper and flipper bushing. Should be a 1/16" gap.

Right now I have a two credit card gap under the bat, but that appears to be the exact height of the bushing.
Do you suggest the gap under the bat should be 4 credit cards or more?
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:31 am

Splitskull wrote:I would replace the sleeve. Or at least clean it good if you don't have a spare around. While doing that, you get the chance to see if anything doesn't look normal with the mechanism.

The seller said he had the machine for 1y and had the flippers rebuilt. I guess we'll find out soon.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

sLaM_tIlT
MAACA Barbarian
Posts: 510
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:22 am
Location: Brampton, Ontario

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby sLaM_tIlT » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:41 am

cap wrote:
sLaM_tIlT wrote:My guess is there is not enough gap between flipper and flipper bushing. Should be a 1/16" gap.

Right now I have a two credit card gap under the bat, but that appears to be the exact height of the bushing.
Do you suggest the gap under the bat should be 4 credit cards or more?


The gap should be between the bushing and flipper not flipper and playfield. You should be able to grab the flipper and lift it a bit. If you can't lift it it is too tight.
Brent

___________________________________
SM
LOTR
WW
BSD
EBD

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:12 am

sLaM_tIlT wrote:The gap should be between the bushing and flipper not flipper and playfield. You should be able to grab the flipper and lift it a bit. If you can't lift it it is too tight.

I didn't know that. Indeed, I can lift the right flipper about one credit card height, but the left flipper is tight.
Maybe the spring keeps its strength but the bushing expands with heat from friction and therefore causes even more friction.
If that's the only problem, it should be easy to fix.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Death Knight
Posts: 3201
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby sylvain » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:30 am

Typically, mechanical flipper issues surfacing only after playing a while are usually due to
heat / coil/coil sleeve expanding and binding the plunger.
You would need to figure-out if the electronic drive or coil/sleeve have an issue here.

Flipper shaft/pawl too tight against the bushing - yeah, an issue for sure, but if too tight
I would have expected the issue to occur immediately and not only after an hour of play.
But possible with heat too I guess.

Please tell us what you find and how you solve it.

Cheers,
- Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

sLaM_tIlT
MAACA Barbarian
Posts: 510
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:22 am
Location: Brampton, Ontario

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby sLaM_tIlT » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:33 am

sylvain wrote:Typically, mechanical flipper issues surfacing only after playing a while are usually due to
heat / coil/coil sleeve expanding and binding the plunger.
You would need to figure-out if the electronic drive or coil/sleeve have an issue here.

Flipper shaft/pawl too tight against the bushing - yeah, an issue for sure, but if too tight
I would have expected the issue to occur immediately and not only after an hour of play.
But possible with heat too I guess.

Please tell us what you find and how you solve it.

Cheers,
- Sylvain.



Actually the behavior he is seeing is exactly what happens when flipper to tight on bushing. I have has it before on a new Stern and many other people experience the same issue. Would work fine for 1/2 hour to hour and the bind up.
Brent

___________________________________
SM
LOTR
WW
BSD
EBD

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:49 am

I tried to repair my flipper. There are notches on the flipper shaft. I screw it tight, but it goes back in the notches. Now the flipper becomes stiff after a couple strokes. I can't play at all.
Looks like my first flipper rebuild job coming my way.

The EOS switches are new and a couple brackets too. The previous owner did a partial rebuild only.
The spring on the left flipper is much weaker than the spring on the right flipper. I'll need to change it.

The plastic bats look good to me. Is it a good idea to keep the plastic bat and only change the shaft?
Should I just buy a new shaft + spring + sleeve or should I buy the whole kit?
marcos sells a kit for two flippers for $65US and the shaft extra for $12US.
That's a lot of extra parts.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
Splitskull
Admins
Posts: 3520
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:59 pm
Location: Mascouche, Qc.

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Splitskull » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:52 pm

Check Starburst (in Ville St-Laurent) .. maybe is cheaper than to buy all that from Marco

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:59 pm

Splitskull wrote:Check Starburst (in Ville St-Laurent) .. maybe is cheaper than to buy all that from Marco

I know, that's where I get my parts. If they don't have it in stock, they can order from marcos and you don't pay the outrageous shipping fee.
I like meeting Robert and Michel in the store.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:09 am

I am rebuilding the flippers with a mini rebuild kit and new shafts.
It's the first time I do this.

I started with the top right flipper. It had missing screws, missing wavy ring, and oil in the shaft retainer.
Now that flipper is slowly moving up as I play, though it does not become loose around the shaft.
The coil is getting hot, so it's probably the EOS switch too far down the stroke.

Silly question, how does one adjust the EOS switch?
It would make more sense to adjust the whole assembly instead of bending a handful of blades,
or is that done by rotating the shaft retainer when screwing the shaft (so the cam is closer to the blades)?
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:56 am

I couldn't figure out a better way so I bent the EOS switch blades gently.
The top right flipper's rest position still advances slowly.
I'm stumped on this one. Any help is appreciated.

During this testing, I overheated the bottom right flipper.
The plastic tip in the EOS switch melted a little bit.
Now the flipper does not work at all.
If it's not a burnt coil or melted sleeve, I might need help there too.

The left flipper still needs to be rebuilt with a new shaft to fix its rest position.

0/3 flippers working. My first flipper rebuild is proving harder than I thought.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:48 am

The bottom right flipper cooled down and now seems OK. The sleeve is not melted.

When I hold the right flipper button, the two flipper coils on the right start to heat up immediately
even though the two EOS switches are clearly open.
When I hold the left flipper button, the coil stays cool for 20 sec and heats up slowly.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
Completist
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:18 pm
Location: Milton, ON

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Completist » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:59 am

Hi Cap - still sounds to me like coil is not switching to the high resistance (hold) side when EOS switch is engaged. If you say EOS switch is adjusted properly then i'd be checking how its wired. I've never worked on Gottliebs but who knows if prev owner messed up the wires. Can you attach a pick of flipper assembly?
Own: Gorgar, Flight 2000 (x2), Firepower, Black Knight, Centaur, Pinbot, F-14, Taxi, Earthshaker, Whirlwind, T2, Cirqus Voltaire

WTB: Diner, Fish Tales

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:06 pm

That's the top right flipper.
IMG_8014.JPG

IMG_8013.JPG
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
Completist
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:18 pm
Location: Milton, ON

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Completist » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:37 pm

not being familiar with gottlieb coils, or having a schematic handy the wiring between the coil and EOS switch looks odd to me. So i'll start by stating that. However if this were a Williams coil i'd say the "hot" wire would attach to the outside lug with the diode band, and the EOS would connect to the middle and outside non-banded side lug. So to see the switch wired to the lug with the band has me thinking...

I don't want to say it's wrong but perhaps another member familiar with these coils can confirm the correct orientation of the switch wiring on that coil. Or pull out the schematics and see what they tell you. But my suspicion is the coil was replaced and wired as the original without paying attention to diode orientation.
Own: Gorgar, Flight 2000 (x2), Firepower, Black Knight, Centaur, Pinbot, F-14, Taxi, Earthshaker, Whirlwind, T2, Cirqus Voltaire

WTB: Diner, Fish Tales

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:57 pm

This is the coil diagram. Reading precise lug information from this is beyond my knowledge.
coil diagram.JPG
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
Completist
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:18 pm
Location: Milton, ON

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Completist » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:27 pm

The diode will show you the terminal locations. The symbol beside the 25959 (your coil #) with the sideways triangle is the diode. The point indicates the cathode or banded side. do you own a DMM? be interesting to see if the coil ohms out ok. Should see 3.85 on high current side and 202 on low current side. And confirm which wire is the hot one (DMM preferred over touching it to your tongue method :P - seriously don't do that :roll: )
Own: Gorgar, Flight 2000 (x2), Firepower, Black Knight, Centaur, Pinbot, F-14, Taxi, Earthshaker, Whirlwind, T2, Cirqus Voltaire

WTB: Diner, Fish Tales

cap
MAACA Mage
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby cap » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:56 pm

I have a DMM. With machine turned off, I read 3.9 ohms on the external lugs, and 197 ohms on the two lugs with the EOS switch wires (with switch open of course).
In the diagram the collector wire on the right and bottom is marked +48VDC (on another page).
The harness wire beside 25959 is marked 055 (green). The harness wire on the other external lug is marked 077 (violet).
Not sure what to check next.
Stargate, F14 Tomcat (in restoration)

User avatar
Completist
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:18 pm
Location: Milton, ON

Re: flipper problem after 1h of play

Postby Completist » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:34 pm

Ok based on that your wiring looks good. Violet connected to banded side which it is. EOS Switch is wired across high resistance side which is correct. So at least we confirmed that. And coil is giving you the expected readings. But for the coil to heat up when you hold flipper button it is not switching to the high resistance side.

Lets see a clearer pic of the eos sw contacts when plunger is at rest and when you pull it in all the way manually.
Own: Gorgar, Flight 2000 (x2), Firepower, Black Knight, Centaur, Pinbot, F-14, Taxi, Earthshaker, Whirlwind, T2, Cirqus Voltaire

WTB: Diner, Fish Tales



Return to “MAACA Forum and Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cobra1980, foonleclown, geester, Hammerhead, Lowrent, Mindstorm88, Pindude152, Sly and 9 guests