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 Post subject: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Hi, i try the two products and here's my observation on a Varathane clearcoated playfield.
PS: I really don't want to start a war ''my father is better than yours'' on this subject
Carnauba is widely recommended over this forum and it is great, here's only my objective observations.

+1 point for Nu finish: The friction is lot better than the Carnauba after application. You can feel it easily by hand or when you pass the clothe on the playfield. The lower the friction, the better the protection and the ball flow, specially between pop bumpers where the ball is litterally push very hard on the playfield.

+1 point for Nu Finish: The mirror effect on the playfield is better, color are deeper, it have capacity to remove more tiny scratches.

+1 point for Nu Finish: Price, 10$ a bottle and 25$ for the Carnauba solid wax

+1 point for Carnauba: Chemical reaction with the playfield. I think the Carnauba chemical reaction is lower than Nu Finish. For the very long term use, i have no conclusion with Nu Finish, i use it for 2 years on my playfields and nothing evident appears but still i'm little afraid about that but i think this is very minimal and will not be noticable even in very long term use 10+ years

Conclusion: I prefer Nu Finish on a Varathane clearcoated playfield and will continue to use it 1-2 times by year. I will not recommend it strongly but certainly recommend to give it a try :)



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Nu Finish will eventually sand down the play field.....carnuba wax will not.

I had new fin take a layer of paint off the hood of a car once...the stuff is abrasive.



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:53 pm 
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http://www.primeautomotive.com/msds/nu_ ... x_msds.pdf



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:41 pm 
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make sure NOT to smoke when applying..... I remember that stuff smells like GAZ!!! :onfire
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:38 pm 
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nu finish is not abrasive like turtle wax,its a syntetical wax.



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:42 pm 
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jojob wrote:
nu finish is not abrasive like turtle wax,its a syntetical wax.



My hood disagrees

3-10% ceramic micro-spheres.... sounds abrasive to me.



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:32 pm 
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nu-finish does have a polish action to it. It's like an all in one cleaner wax.

I'd be surprised if it had enough power to damage much on a true clearcoated playfield. The polishing action is more intended to remove residues and contaminants than level clearcoat for scratch removal, especially if applied by hand. On a Varathane clearcoat, you might be able to induce clearcoat removal as it's not nearly as hard as a real clearcoat but it would take some work.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:48 pm 
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pharoah007 wrote:
...the stuff is abrasive.


So is Novus.. ;)

There was a guy on RGP boasting about a nautical wax (used for classic boats, etc.) I'm pretty curious about it myself.. can't remember the name of it though.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:02 pm 
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I've had some success with synthetic "gloss finish" waxes (which "fill in" scratches) as well, but always worry about their solvent content.



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:08 pm 
LOL... I love this discussion. It comes up every year or so, and ends up with the author swearing immediately by Nu-Finish, only to mention off the record a year or so later that it did cause problems.

Here is the chemical low-down.... Nu Finish is petroleum-distillate based. Translated... it has combustible solvents in it. Dont believe me? Here is the Material Safety Data Sheet:

MSDS
: NU FINISH CAR POLISH

CAS
: 8052-41-3

NAME
: stoddard solventsolvent 140 (petroleum distillate)





Catalog of Chemical Suppliers, Buyers, Custom Synthesis Companies And Equipment Manufacturers
[ NU FINISH CAR POLISH 8052-41-3 ]

Suppliers:

Not Available


Buyers:

Not Available






===================== Product Identification =====================

MSDS NAME:NU FINISH CAR POLISH
NIIN:00N019310
MSDS Number: BLCTM
=== Responsible Party ===
Company:REED-UNION CORPORATION
Address:676 ST CLAIR
City:CHICAGO
State:IL
ZIP:60611
Country:US
Info Phone Num:312-644-3200
Emergency Phone Num:312-644-3200
CAGE:REEDU
=== Contractor Identification ===
Company:REED-UNION CORPORATION
Address:676 ST CLAIR
Box:City:CHICAGO
State:IL
ZIP:60611
Country:US
Phone:312-644-3200
CAGE:REEDU

============= Composition/Information on Ingredients =============

Name:STODDARD SOLVENT
CAS:8052-41-3
RTECS #:WJ8925000
Fraction by Wt: 10%
OSHA PEL:500 PPM
ACGIH TLV:100 PPM; 9293

Name:SOLVENT 140 (PETROLEUM DISTILLATE)
Fraction by Wt: 1%
OSHA PEL:500 PPM (MFR)
ACGIH TLV:300 PPM (MFR)

===================== Hazards Identification =====================

LD50 LC50 Mixture:NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Routes of Entry: Inhalation:YES Skin:YES Ingestion:NO
Reports of Carcinogenicity:NTP:NO IARC:NO OSHA:NO
Health Hazards Acute and Chronic:EYES:MAY IRRIT W/SLIGHT PAIN, REDNESS
& POSS MINOR CORNEAL INJURY. SKIN:SINGLE EXPOS FOR SEVERAL HRS MAY
CAUSE SLIGHT REDDENING. LONGER/RPTD CNTCTS MAY CAUSE MOD IRRIT &
POSS MILD BURN & INJURY DUE TO ABSORPTION. INHAL:SHORT EXPOS MAY
CAUSE SLIGHT ANESTH & POSS SOME INJURY, DEPENDING ON CONC & LENGTH
(EFTS OF OVEREXP)
Explanation of Carcinogenicity:NOT RELEVANT.
Effects of Overexposure:HLTH HAZ:OF EXPOS. MAY ALSO IRRIT NOSE & THROAT
SLIGHTLY. INGEST:AMTS TRANSFERRED TO MOUTH BY FINGERS, ETC, DURING
NORM OPERATIONS SHOULD NOT CAUSE INJURY. SWALLOWING SUBSTANTIAL
AMTS MAY CAUSE SOME I NJURY.
Medical Cond Aggravated by Exposure:THIS PROD, AS W/ANY CHEM, MAY
ENHANCE ALLERGIC CNDTNS ON CERTAIN PEOPLE. WE DO NOT KNOW OF ANY
SPECIFIC CNDTNS THAT MIGHT BE AGGRAVATED BY EXPOS TO THIS PRODUCT.

======================= First Aid Measures =======================

Eyes:FLUSH WITH WATER FOR AT LEAST 15 MINUTES. SKIN:WIPE OFF
& FLUSH WITH WATER. INHAL:REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. GET MD. INGEST:GET
MD IMMEDIATELY.

===================== Fire Fighting Measures =====================

Flash Point Method:CC
Flash Point:109F,43C
Extinguishing Media:WATER FOG, CO2, DRY CHEMICAL, FOAM.
Fire Fighting Procedures:WEAR NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED SCBA & FULL
PROTECTIVE EQUIP IN FIGHTING FIRES INVOLVING CHEMICALS.
Unusual Fire/Explosion Hazard:NONE KNOWN.

================== Accidental Release Measures ==================

Spill Release Procedures:REMOVE PRODUCT & USE ABSORBENT MATERIAL TO
TAKE CARE OF ANY OIL-LIKE RESIDUES. IF SPLASHED ON SKIN:CHANGE
CONTAM CLOTHING AS SOON AS POSSIBLE & THOROUGHLY FLUSH AFFECTED
AREAS WITH COOL WATER.
Neutralizing Agent:NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.

====================== Handling and Storage ======================

Handling and Storage Precautions:PROD IS COMBUSTIBLE. USE W/REASONABLE
CARE & CAUTION.
Other Precautions:TOXICOLOGICAL PROPERTIES HAVE NOT BEEN EVALUATED
COMPLETELY. USE WITH APPROPRIATE CAUTION. USE AT ELEVATED
TEMPERATURE MAY REQUIRE ADDED PRECAUTIONS.

============= Exposure Controls/Personal Protection =============

Respiratory Protection:USE NIOSH/MSHA APPROVED RESPIRATORY PROTECTION
UNLESS LOCAL EXHAUST VENTILATION IS ADEQUATE OR AIR SAMPLING DATA
SHOW EXPOSURES ARE WITHIN TLV & PEL GUIDELINES. AT ROOM TEMPERATURE
HANDLING NO RESPIRA TORY PROTECTION REQUIRED.
Ventilation:LOCAL EXHAUST MAY BE NEEDED. MECHANICAL (GENERAL)
VENTILATION RECOMMENDED.
Protective Gloves:IMPERVIOUS GLOVES .
Eye Protection:CHEMICAL WORKERS GOGGLES .
Other Protective Equipment:NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Work Hygienic Practices:WASHING @ MEALTIME & END OF SHIFT IS ADEQ. GOOD
PRACT REQS GROSS AMT OF ANY CHEM BE REMOVED FROM SKIN ASAP, (SUPP
DATA)
Supplemental Safety and Health
HYGIENE PRACT:ESPECIALLY BEFORE EATING OR SMOKING.

================== Physical/Chemical Properties ==================

HCC:F4
Boiling Pt:B.P. Text:>212F,>100C
Spec Gravity:1 @ 77F
Evaporation Rate & Reference:<1 (ETHER=1)
Solubility in Water:<0.1
Appearance and Odor:SOLVENT ODOR, CREAMY POLISH, SOME COLOR.
Percent Volatiles by Volume:20

================= Stability and Reactivity Data =================

Stability Indicator/Materials to Avoid:YES
OXIDIZING MATERIAL CAN CAUSE REACTION.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:SILICON DIOXIDE, CO2 & TRACES OF
INCOMPLETELY BURNED CARBON PRODUCTS.

==================== Disposal Considerations ====================

Waste Disposal Methods:DISPOSAL MUST BE I/A/W FEDERAL, STATE & LOCAL
REGULATIONS .

Disclaimer (provided with this information by the compiling agencies):
This information is formulated for use by elements of the Department
of Defense. The United States of America in no manner whatsoever,
expressly or implied, warrants this information to be accurate and
disclaims all liability for its use. Any person utilizing this
document should seek competent professional advice to verify and
assume responsibility for the suitability of this information to their
particular situation.


Now, I can hear people think ''well, I put that on my car... why not on my pinball?'' The answer is that unless you have an automotive clearcoat on your playfield, your surface is not very resistant. An automotive clearcoat is specifically designed to take a beating from abrasives, sunlight, heat and cold. So Nu Finish is OK for the most part. Varathane is a water-based soft clearcoat. It barely resists walking on it and even then needs maintenance to remain nice on a wood floor. So this product would be too harsh.

Carnauba wax on the other hand is natural. It it borderline inert. It is exactly what they say... a hard wax. Not a sealer or a polishing/cleaning compound.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:11 pm 
... and by the way, on the Nu Finish MSDS it is written that it's main component is ''Stoddard Solvent''. Look it up on Wikipedia. Have fun reading. It is basically a paint thinner.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Most people ddin't keep their pinball long enough to see a difference between product :)
Why they selling Milwax for pinball if petroleum damaged PF... does old lacquer PF are best than varethane?



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:42 pm 
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better stick with Wax!

Wax is used to PROTECT the pf from ball wear......I dont wax my pf to make it ``look good``I wax to protect!
Wax is used on floors and furniture to protect from wear....that Nu Finish will only make it shineand make water bead (cause of all that shit in there ) it MAY be great if you dont play your games!!! :lol:

NU-Finish Sucks!!! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:19 pm 
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In echoing Sparky's sentiments, I think the big point of note here is Nu-Finish is more than a protector of the playfield. It includes cleaning and slight polishing action, which may or may not be desired depending on circumstance.

In some peoples world, they wouldn't touch their car with something like an all in one product - they wash, clay, polish, and wax in seperate steps. Same argument can be made for pinball. If you want to wash, clean, polish, and wax your playfield in seperate steps, stay with novus and Carnuba and Nu Finish would be a one step solution that likely wouldnt do what the other steps do seprately.

That's assuming you want to use the product int the first place being that it has petroleum distillates.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:42 pm 
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All I can say is from experience carnuaba doesn't offer much protection from acid rain but Nu-finish does so don't leave your pinball outside in a rain storm for days if your using carnuaba.



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:45 pm 
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necro_nemesis wrote:
All I can say is from experience carnuaba doesn't offer much protection from acid rain but Nu-finish does so don't leave your pinball outside in a rain storm for days if your using carnuaba.


and seagull poop :lol: .



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:03 pm 
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necro_nemesis wrote:
All I can say is from experience carnuaba doesn't offer much protection from acid rain but Nu-finish does so don't leave your pinball outside in a rain storm for days if your using carnuaba.


You need to post more often :lol: I miss ya man!



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:32 pm 
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+1 for nu finish, if you drop sulfuric acid on your playfield( with the glass off :lol: )....also good for salt and mud!!






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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:59 pm 
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lot of guys shine their playfield with novus 2 FINE SCRATCH REMOVER.did you think this product is not abrasive? :FP: better product than synthetical wax like nu finish??not logical.if you d ont try you d ont know...



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:48 pm 
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jojob wrote:
lot of guys shine their playfield with novus 2 FINE SCRATCH REMOVER.did you think this product is not abrasive? :FP: better product than synthetical wax like nu finish??not logical.if you d ont try you d ont know...



I have never had to Novus a playfield more than once due to regular waxing after the initial clean.

Giver with the Nu finnish man, there your games, you wont see it on my games tho,



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:50 pm 
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jojob wrote:
lot of guys shine their playfield with novus 2 FINE SCRATCH REMOVER.did you think this product is not abrasive? :FP: better product than synthetical wax like nu finish??not logical.if you d ont try you d ont know...


Novus is a plastic polish and Nu-Finish is a clear coat polish. Plasitc is considerably softer than clear is thus the abrasives in Novis are substantially softer and have the potential to do less damage to a PF - at the very least it takes alot more action to cause the damage.

Moral: not all polishes/abrasives are equal


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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:53 pm 
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jojob wrote:
lot of guys shine their playfield with novus 2 FINE SCRATCH REMOVER.did you think this product is not abrasive? :FP: better product than synthetical wax like nu finish??not logical.if you d ont try you d ont know...


I'm not arguing for or against Nu Finish, but a bunch of you guys are mixing up a whole lot of variables and finishes here.

People use Novus2 (which has a fine abrasive grit like a swirl mark remover in 3M automotive products plus a fairly mild solvent) on playfields exactly to REMOVE the old WAX. Not usually to polish the old finish (which it will do, but only to a certain shine), unless you are doing a stripped playfield and apply a lot of elbow grease (it's a really slow cutting polish). But it has a very fine slow polish grit meant, originally for plastic, as previously stated. But plastic and clear coats probably have a somewhat similar hardness makeup.

Adding new wax does a couple things. It goes on as a layer of almost clear gunk that when you apply heat (through friction of buffing) melts and puts itself down into the micro pores, then you dry buff it and that levels it all out so you get less refraction of light and, voila!, shine. You should wax your balls for the same reasons.

And I recommend a car duster, microfibre cloth and a Quik Detailer (which cleans and rejuvenates the wax or synthetic coating coating) between clean/waxes.

HOWEVER, if you don't clean your ramps, in the hard to reach lanes and any under playfield ramps, your strip and re-wax job will need to be redone fairly often.

Millwax became frowned upon when MYLAR coated playfields became popular because its solvent eats away slowly at mylar adhesive and causes it to curl (as well as fading decal ink which became popular around the same time). I think it cleans rubber well but also de-polymerizes it so that it dries out faster. [P.S. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was Williams maybe who started to use mylars and then printed in their manuals NOT to use Millwax on their playfields. Correct me anyone if I've mixed something up.]

It's not likely you're doing much damage to a clearcoat with Novus 2 unless you're using a buffer to put it on; the ball and trapped dirt in the wax and on the balls likely does more.

The issue with Nu Finish is mostly about the unknowns of the solvents/abrasives (i.e. use it on a paint job with no clear left and it starts lifting paint - as does Novus2 to a small extent). The abrasives may or may not be similar, I haven't checked into it. It still is a one step product though, which means it uses a volatile solvent to be able to dissolve an acrylic or similar top coat and evaporate fast enough to leave behind a slick finish.

There is whitewood, that is painted, the paint is protected by a clearcoat (synthetic or laquer finish). Sometimes that is covered by an adhesive plastic mylar sheet. And on top of that is a final protection coat of wax or synthetic finish.

I think, it's likely that a two-step process is going to be "better" than a one step, and a three step, better still, etc.

Step 1. You CLEAN to remove old wax and dirt build-up. Mild solvent with or without an abrasive (but make it a very fine one), and a clean, micro-fibre cloth works best.

Step 2. You POLISH only if the underlying clear-coat or paint finish is scratched or has swirl marks. Essentially you are sanding down the "good" finish to get it down to the level of the scratch so they don't show and refract light at odd angles (which hazes shine). Most polishes also contain solvents so that you can dissolve grit and grime to speed polishing (waxy substances such as grease, old wax, dead skin, etc. blackens the surface by holding down dust) and the solvents also reduce friction, cause micro-granulation and slurry of the abrasives, etc.

If the underlying finish is weak or good, you don't polish, you move to step 3.

Step 3. You apply a new secondary protection finish, usually a wax (natural like carnuba) or a synthetic compound (like an acrylic or polymer resin), which fills in the scratch pattern of the polish and protects the underlying finish.

A synthetic wax will usually last longer, but has a different kind of shine to it. Less warm, sometimes, more reflective and refelctive for longer (but a well done carnuba wax will shine great, just not last as long).

Both Carnuba wax AND synthetic waxes contain solvents, it's just that one is less of an organic solvent, the other is more of a petroleum solvent (or mix and match).

Step 4. The quick detailer is done between waxings and always after dusting the surface with a car duster (best) or lintless tack cloth (tricky), and applied with a microfibre cloth. The idea here is to remove grit and grime and dissolve the very thinest layer of wax (essentially smoothing it back down with a mild solvent and some friction). Adds slickness to the wax / synthetic protection coat.

These 4 steps, if understood and applied give great shine and speed to most playfield surfaces, AND help protect the clearcoat and paint with the minimum number of polishings (the more you polish, the less clearcoat you'll have), over the longest period.

Test any new product and/or be careful when used on mylars. You can polish them up, but the adhesives around the edge can be loosened by the more liquid solvents, or if left on too long in corners and gullies.

3M makes some great products (polishes) which work well on modern diamond coat clears and mylars (re-packaged as Treasure Cove), but then I think 3M owns Meguiars and I have had good results with 3M, Meguiars, Mothers and plain old white floor wax (and a little elbow grease) and a couple of the off-brand synthetics. None of my applications have been tested over enough time to be very conclusive, but the quick detailed finishes seem to stand up the longest with the best look and ball speed between waxings.

Clear coat finishes have evolved over time and have different durability, resistance to different kinds of solvents and different abilities to retain a shine (depending on their hardness among other things). So as finishes have evolved, so have the products used to clean, protect and retain their shine.

And then again, I could just be full of shit. Like Terry.



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 Post subject: Re: Carnauba vs Nu Finish
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:47 am 
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websherpa wrote:
jojob wrote:
lot of guys shine their playfield with novus 2 FINE SCRATCH REMOVER.did you think this product is not abrasive? :FP: better product than synthetical wax like nu finish??not logical.if you d ont try you d ont know...

But plastic and clear coats probably have a somewhat similar hardness makeup.


No. Not in terms of a true automotive clearcoat. A factory clear is surprisingly hard.

In fact, without a true rubbing compound and a pile of elbow grease, all those 'swirl removers' that are on the market do almost nothing if applied by hand. Most of the ones that become popular actually fill scratches instead of leveling or removing them, and there is a often a huge placebo effect when the average guy uses polishes on their car, thus the products seem to do something.

For appreciable and proper scratch removal from a modern clearcoat, a dual action polisher like the PC 7424 (not a crappy one fron canadian tire sorry) or rotary buffer needs to be used, typically with fairly aggressive abrasive products - often so agressive the products and polishing bonnets will themselves leave massive amounts of smaller finer scratches. And even then, you have only removed literally microns of clearcoat. (typical clear is around 200-250 microns thick IIRC, and it's generally not advised to polish away more than 40% of the total thickness)

I have the PC 7424 and polished my RX-8 when I still owned it. That car has a notoriously soft and thin clearcoat, and I was shocked at the agressive products and the amount of pressure I needed to apply to get any results out of it.

Conversely, headlights and tail lights can be done with a mild polish by hand with little to no effort. These headlight kits they sell now are fine, but headlights have been restorable with plastic polish for years now :) It's just the average person didn't know about it.

Are there hard and soft plastics? Yes, but a modern clearcoat is shockingly hard.


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