Tim's First EM Journey. Fixing a Gottlieb Surfer.

Have questions on how to fix your machine or what products to use? This is the place to ask for help.
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amona
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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby amona » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:05 am

http://www.eurekamodern.com/nutone%20solenoids-350.jpg
Do your chimes plungers look more like the ones on the right or the left? If the nylon plug is missing you might sometimes get sound. But not often.

Sometimes the dampening foam the plungers land back on gets sticky.

That relay in the head. Give it some help, push the plastic down (while a game is on) it will score the points and should activate the chime coil. This will make sure good contact is being made at the right time. Light tap and no chime and a hard push and always a chime - problem is in the relay. Otherwise work your way through the contacts in the schematic. Start by reseating those large Jones plugs a couple of times.
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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:10 am

amona wrote:http://www.eurekamodern.com/nutone%20solenoids-350.jpg
Do your chimes plungers look more like the ones on the right or the left? If the nylon plug is missing you might sometimes get sound. But not often.

Sometimes the dampening foam the plungers land back on gets sticky.

That relay in the head. Give it some help, push the plastic down (while a game is on) it will score the points and should activate the chime coil. This will make sure good contact is being made at the right time. Light tap and no chime and a hard push and always a chime - problem is in the relay. Otherwise work your way through the contacts in the schematic. Start by reseating those large Jones plugs a couple of times.

They are more like the ones on the right. The nylon plugs are all there and in good shape. I replaced the foam and degunked everything. The plungers travel smoothly.

I have been looking at the schematic, but the chimes is a complicated section. There are multiple contacts all over the place that interact with the chimes. I will try to assist the contact in the score reel to see if it is just not making proper contact and I'll try the things suggested by Sylvain as well.

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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:08 pm

Alright, I have 30 whole minutes to troubleshoot this. The contacts in the score reel are definitely making good contact. In case they weren't, I alligator clipped the contact closed. I then activated one of the 'rubber' kickers to score 10 points. The points counted and no chime sounded. I did this until the hundreds flipped to 1. So 10 times I activated the kicker and the chime only sounded once.

I can see the chime plunger moving every time 10 points is counted. The plunger just isn't going high enough to strike the chime.

Do I have the chime plunger in backwards or something? The nylon part points down correct?

[EDIT] I'm searching the web and I think the chime plunger is installed upside down. Based on photos I can see of similar chime units at least. I've never seen one of these units before. It wasn't working, so the first thing I did was take it apart and clean it. I re-assembled it the way I found it. I'm going to take it apart and flip the plungers around.
Last edited by Fifty on Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:58 pm

I reversed the plunger that hits the chimes. Guess what? The chimes are now working! Such a stupid little thing. I can only guess that it was taken apart once upon a time and haven't worked since then. If this had not been my first and only EM I would have just said to myself "Self, those plungers are in the wrong way" but instead I wasted 2 days on it.

Talk about learning EM the hard way.

I'm going to keep this thread going. I'm sure I'll run into other issues and I would like to capture them all in one place.


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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:17 pm

This game is working now. It is fully playable. Scoring works with only one exception, 3X. 2X works perfectly, but I do not understand how 3X is activated. I have read that it will only enable on ball 5, but I still can't get it to come on. Using the schematics, I see that 2X and 3X is controlled by 8B, 9B, and 10B. It also looks like 2X goes out when 3X is lit.
Under the playfield I can see the SL+GR wire. It is not getting 6V. I traced it back to the switch at 8B. I see 6V coming in on the switch, but the switch is open so 3X is not lit. With the game on, using a wooden chopstick, if I manually trigger the make-break switch 3X lights up. 2X goes out. Seems logical. It proves my path from the switch to the 3X bulb is good. My problem is the switch on 8B. 8B is in the large relay bank under the playfield and I'm not sure how it works. The switch obviously works, but the arm is not in the correct position to make contact on the make-break.
Is there a way to manually move the arms? By arms, I mean the black arm that moves and triggers the switches. Ugh... Terrible description there. Here is a picture. How does this arm activate?
Oh, and am I correct is saying that 3X only comes on for ball 5? If so, do you just need to activate the 5 red star rollovers and then one of the 'increase bonus multiplier when lit" rollovers to activate it?

20190310_154926.jpg

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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby amona » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:24 pm

If you stick your finger underneath where you can’t see. Parallel to to the switch blades you can push in the trip that will activate that black bar.

There should be a wing nut at each end of that bank of relays. Back it off a turn or ten (you might need to/want to just take them off while you work) and the hole bank can pivot out and you can see things better.

Do this with the power off until you used to things. The big coil that resets the bank uses line voltage I think and has a bit of a kick. Even more so if you happen to touch the wires. (Most, if not all, the plastic coated wires are line voltage).

If you are poking around with the power on under there - put in some ear plugs. That reset bank is loud.

No idea how the features light/work on that game

Can’t help you there.
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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:37 am

amona wrote:If you stick your finger underneath where you can’t see. Parallel to to the switch blades you can push in the trip that will activate that black bar.

There should be a wing nut at each end of that bank of relays. Back it off a turn or ten (you might need to/want to just take them off while you work) and the hole bank can pivot out and you can see things better.

Do this with the power off until you used to things. The big coil that resets the bank uses line voltage I think and has a bit of a kick. Even more so if you happen to touch the wires. (Most, if not all, the plastic coated wires are line voltage).

If you are poking around with the power on under there - put in some ear plugs. That reset bank is loud.

No idea how the features light/work on that game

Can’t help you there.

Thanks. I saw the wing nuts there, but I thought they were just to hold it in place. I didn't realized it could pivot out. That will make things a bit easier on me. The wingnut on the one side keeps loosening on it's own. Is there supposed to be a spring washer in there too? The wingnut just keeps loosening itself.

I'll trying pushing in the trip. I'm guessing once I do the 3X will light up, but that still leaves me with a problem - What causes it to engage in the first place? I'll report back tomorrow evening after trying it.

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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby sylvain » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:12 pm

Unsure if your machine has its Instruction Card.
For Surfer and Surf Champ, the Instruction cards for 3-ball or 5-ball state:

BONUS VALUE DOUBLES ON LAST BALL OR BY HITTING EITHER SIDE
ROLLOVER WHEN LIT. EITHER SIDE ROLLOVER TRIPLES BONUS
VALUE IF DOUBLE IS LIT.


The Double Bonus Control Relay (11B on the Sequence bank) is the one that should trip on the last ball (3 or 5 ball).
A contact on the 11B arm is in the circuit for 10B...

Sides rollovers should trip 9B (on the sequence bank: Bonus Increase relay) when lit, when hit.

Did you tighten and adjust all those contacts on that switch bank?
Easy to do once the wing nuts are loosened and the whole Sequence Bank rotated/swung over.

-Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:56 am

sylvain wrote:Unsure if your machine has its Instruction Card.
For Surfer and Surf Champ, the Instruction cards for 3-ball or 5-ball state:

BONUS VALUE DOUBLES ON LAST BALL OR BY HITTING EITHER SIDE
ROLLOVER WHEN LIT. EITHER SIDE ROLLOVER TRIPLES BONUS
VALUE IF DOUBLE IS LIT.


The Double Bonus Control Relay (11B on the Sequence bank) is the one that should trip on the last ball (3 or 5 ball).
A contact on the 11B arm is in the circuit for 10B...

Sides rollovers should trip 9B (on the sequence bank: Bonus Increase relay) when lit, when hit.

Did you tighten and adjust all those contacts on that switch bank?
Easy to do once the wing nuts are loosened and the whole Sequence Bank rotated/swung over.

-Sylvain.

I don't have the instruction card, but reading the instructions doesn't really help. The full instructions are still not really clear. The only way to light the side rollovers is to get all 5 star rollovers first. The way it reads it appears I the steps are;

1) Hit all 5 star rollovers.
2) Hit either side rollover.
3) X2 is awarded.
4) X3 is awarded only on last ball.

I went through the contacts on that switch bank last night and tightened everything up. I'm not at home right now, but if i recall correctly one of the relays doesn't seem to be tripping. I'll dig into this more tonight.

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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby sylvain » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:08 am

Fifty wrote:I don't have the instruction card, but reading the instructions doesn't really help. The full instructions are still not really clear. The only way to light the side rollovers is to get all 5 star rollovers first. The way it reads it appears I the steps are;

1) Hit all 5 star rollovers.
2) Hit either side rollover.
3) X2 is awarded.
4) X3 is awarded only on last ball.


Steps appear correct and clear - Either Side Rollover only get lit when all 5 star rollover are completed (5B or 6B on the schematics, no coil).
Once lit then you can get 2X bonus (or 3X at last ball) when getting the Left or Right side rollover.
Assuming all contacts are tight and properly adjusted, and coils working on the Sequence Bank.
And no broken wire in harness to that relay bank.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

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sylvain
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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby sylvain » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:25 am

Go to the following useful web site for full score instruction cards you can print:
http://www.pinballrebel.com/pinball/cards/

Surfer's card also indicates 'COMPLETING 5 ROLLOVER BUTTONS LIGHTS SIDE ROLLOVER FEATURES.'
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

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Fifty
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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby Fifty » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:00 am

sylvain wrote:Unsure if your machine has its Instruction Card.
For Surfer and Surf Champ, the Instruction cards for 3-ball or 5-ball state:

BONUS VALUE DOUBLES ON LAST BALL OR BY HITTING EITHER SIDE
ROLLOVER WHEN LIT. EITHER SIDE ROLLOVER TRIPLES BONUS
VALUE IF DOUBLE IS LIT.


The Double Bonus Control Relay (11B on the Sequence bank) is the one that should trip on the last ball (3 or 5 ball).
A contact on the 11B arm is in the circuit for 10B...

Sides rollovers should trip 9B (on the sequence bank: Bonus Increase relay) when lit, when hit.

Did you tighten and adjust all those contacts on that switch bank?
Easy to do once the wing nuts are loosened and the whole Sequence Bank rotated/swung over.

-Sylvain.

Hi Sylvain,

I have been tightening all the screws in the machine. Most of them are loose so it's the first thing I have been doing. Plus you recommended it, and since you have a wee bit more experience than I do at this I tend to take your advice every time. :)

Now that I know how the bonus is triggered I tried it out. 9B is working fine. 11B is working. I witnessed it trigger. My 10B Double Bonus Control Relay is not working. On last ball, it doesn't trip. If I manually trip it the 3X light comes on.

So 10B is having an issue. I will have to look into it a bit more.

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Re: EM help. Surfer

Postby sylvain » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:58 am

The 10B coil is energized through only two switches that are in-series (so both conditions need to be true for the relay coil to be energized):
- A Normally Closed contact on 10B itself;
- A Normally Open contact on 11B (so 11B needs to be activated for that contact to be properly closed).

That is it. Assuming the 10B relay coil is good/not opened and wiring OK.
I am sure you will find it.

Good luck!
-Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

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Tim's EM Journey. Fixing a Gottlieb Surfer.

Postby Fifty » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:19 pm

Thread renamed.

It didn't take long to discover the issue with 10B.

20190316_130342.jpg


Is there an easy way to take this entire assembly off? There are quite a few rusted springs that look to be on the brink of snapping, and it's just plain gross to look at so I'd like to give it an Evaporust bath.

20190316_130357.jpg

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sylvain
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Re: Tim's First EM Journey. Fixing a Gottlieb Surfer.

Postby sylvain » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:17 pm

I suspect that coil burned because it stayed ON for too long, probably because the Normally Closed contact on 10B did not open when that relay tripped...
… my two cents...
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

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Fifty
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Re: Tim's First EM Journey. Fixing a Gottlieb Surfer.

Postby Fifty » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:02 pm

Whatever burned it up happened a some time ago. It's been like this for a while. I am going through the entire assembly and cleaning it up now. I haven't discovered any easy way to take it apart though. I don't think there is an easy way. :(

I will have to order some parts shortly from PBR, so I'll add a coil onto my shopping list.

This thread will go cold for a while. I'll place the order this week, but I'm out of town until mid-April.



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