Gottlieb Surf Champ - always two players

[Hammond1]

I just brought home a Surf Champ home, but I do not yet have a schematic. Pressing the start button once results in a two-player game. Subsequent pressings of the start button activate third and fourth players as expected. Any tips on which relay(s) to inspect would be appreciated.

Mason

[sylvain]

Make sure the Coin Unit (usually at the bottom front right inside the cabinet) properly resets to its 1st position upon game start.
Seems it is stuck in position 2 for 2-player game, thus is probably a mechanical/gummed-up stepper issue there.

- Sylvain.

[Hammond1]

Thanks for the tip. When I manually actuate the coin stepper unit, it seems to rotate and step fine. I will take the stepper unit out tomorrow and inspect it more closely.

Mason

[sylvain]

Gottlieb Start-up sequence could help here.
Here they are - this captured from http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm

1975-1978 Gottlieb Start-Up Sequence.

Multi-player games with Ax/Bx relays.
1. Inserting a coin or pressing the coin door start button (Gottlieb calls this the "replay" button) activates the "S" (start) relay. The start relay will lock on from its own switch and a score motor switch.
2. The "S" relay will start the score motor running.
3. The "S" relay and the score motor increment the total play meter.
4. On a 4 player game, the coin unit (next to the chime box) will decrement four times to the home (zero) position, and then kick up one position (to the 1 player position). Note if players 1 & 4 are lit on the backglass, the coin unit is not stepping up from the zero to one player position.
5. The "S" relay energizes the Ax relay through the Bx (Last Ball) relay (sometimes), but always thru a switch on the "S" relay, "U" relay, and score motor switch at 2C. This should energize the Ax relay.
6. The "R" hold relay pulls in and stays in, this turns off power to the Game Over relay (which stays energized when a game is finished).
7. *On a 4-player game, the Player Unit in the backbox increments until it reaches the Z1 position. The Player Unit stops and the Z1 relay in the backbox energizes. The score motor resets the player 1&2 score reels through the Z1 relay. When all eight score reels are at "zero", the Z1 relay de-energizes and a normally closed switch on Z1 (very top switch, looks un-natural) allows the player control unit to increment to the Z2 position.
8. *On a 4-player game, the Player Unit stops and the Z2 relay in the backbox energizes. The score motor resets the player 3&4 score reels through the Z2 relay. When all eight score reels are at "zero", the Z2 relay de-energizes and a normally closed switch on Z2 (very top switch, looks un-natural) allows the player control unit to increment to the "home" position (this is the "player 1, ball 1" position). (On a 4-player game there is a player unit switch stack for each player. This controls which set of score reels will score in the game.)
9.*On a 2-player game there are no Z1 and Z2 relays. Instead the player unit uses two switch stacks (which would be the player3 and player4 stacks) and the score motor to reset all the score reels, instead of the Z1/Z2 relays and the score motor.
10. Player unit is now at the "home" position ("player 1, ball 1" position). This is the P5A and P5B switches on the player unit, which is the switch stack closest to the backglass with only 2 switches. This causes the Ax relay to reset and the bonus unit to reset (if the game has a bonus unit). Often the P5A and P5B switches are dirty/mis-adjusted which will not let the score motor stop running.
11. If the ball is in the outhole, the "O" relay activates kicking the ball to the shooter lane. Note: the "O" relay will not activate unless the bonus unit (if the game has one) is reset to zero (there is a bonus unit zero position switch).
12. The ball passes over a trough switch as it is kicked from the outhole, which de-energized the "first ball" relay. Now the game will score. If this switch is closed after the "first ball" relay is de-energized, it will advance the player unit.

Otis posted a nice Gottlieb start-up sequence for 1975 and later Gottlieb 4-player games. (This is another look at the same sequence as above.)
1. Pressing the replay button with replays up will actuate "V" relay (replay button relay).
2. "V" relay locks in thru a motor 2B switch and will actuate "S" relay.
3. "S" relay will lock-in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch. "S" relay starts the motor running.
4. "AX" relay actuates and the "coin" unit subtracts through switches on motor 3C, "S", and "AX" relays and a switch on motor 1A.
5. "Q" relay de-energizes when "AX" relay operates. When "AX" relay actuates, the reset relays "Z1" and "Z2" are energized in sequence by rivets on the "Player" unit, through switches on "AX" relay.
6. Motor 1A steps the "Player" unit, through switches on "AX" relay and "P5B", to the 20th position energizing "Z1". When "Z1" is energized the 1st and 2nd player score units reset to zero through switches on motor 1A, motor 4A and "Z1".
7. When all the score units of the 1st and 2nd player are at zero, the player unit steps to the 21st position through a normally closed switch on "Z2" and normally closed switches on all score units of the 1st and 2nd players, actuating "Z2" relay. The 3rd and 4th player score units now reset through switches on motor 1A, motor 4A and "Z2".
8. The player unit continues to its zero position through the closed switches on "Z1", "Z2", "P5B" and motor 1A until "P5B" opens. When "P5B" on the player unit closes, "AX" and "BX" relays reset through motor 4C and switches on "U" and "R" relays. The reset cycle is now complete.

[Hammond1]

Surf Champ works a little differently than the start-up sequence above. The coin stepper unit is a reset stepper. The reset solenoid moves the stepper to the player 1 position, while the other solenoid moves the stepper to the other three positions. For some reason, the current sequence for one player is activating both the reset solenoid and subsequently the second solenoid.

The game is set to free play, and so I am thinking that maybe the issue is the coin stepper sensing an additional coin which automatically advances the coin stepper.

Mason

[sylvain]

Then, this exact start sequence for your game, captured from the http://www.mrpinball.com tips of the day archive, from the game manual.
Not many coin unit types and behavior on those Gottliebs 4-player machines from that era...

The fact that the game is set to free-play is most probably not the issue. Setting an EM to free-play usually means that the zero position switches
on the credit unit are bent to stay closed at the zero position, making the machine think there are still credits left on the credit unit dial...
Most probably nothing to do with your issue...

Good luck & cheers!
- Sylvain.

Mr. Pinball Tip:
The following information is taken from the October 1976 Gottlieb Surf Champ manual. This may be helpful when debugging a startup problem with this or other Gottlieb 4-player games from the same period.

1. Inserting a coin or pushing the replay button actuates 'S' relay (Start relay).
2. This relay will lock-in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch.
3. 'S' relay starts the motor running.
4. 'AX' relay actuates and the 'coin' unit resets through switches on 'U' and 'S' relays and a switch on motor 1D. 'Q' and 'U' relays de-energize when 'AX' relay operates.
5. When 'AX' relay actuates, the reset relays 'Z1' and 'Z2' are energized in sequence by rivets on the 'Player' unit, through switches on 'AX' relay.
5a. Motor 1A steps the 'Player' unit, through switches on 'AX' relay and 'P5B', to the 20th position energizing 'Z1'.
5b. When 'Z1' is energized the 1st and 2nd player score units reset to zero through switches on motor 1A, motor 4A and 'Z1'. When all score units of the 1st and 2nd player are at zero the player unit steps to the 21st position through a normally closed switch on 'Z2' and normally closed switches on all score units of the 1st two players, actuating 'Z2' relay. The 3rd and 4th player score units now reset through switches on motor 1A, motor 4A, and 'Z2'. The player unit continues to its zero position through the closed switches on 'Z1', 'Z2', 'P5B' and motor 1A until 'P5B' opens.
6. When 'P5A' on the player unit closes, 'AX' and 'BX' relays reset through motor 4C and switches on 'U', 'O', and 'R' relays. The reset cycle is now complete.
7. Inserting additional coins or pushing the replay button will step the 'coin' unit to a maximum of 3 (4 players) through switches on 'U' and 'S' relays and a switch on motor 1D. The replay button circuit opens when 'coin' unit is on 3rd position.
8. Place the ball in the out hole. The ball return switch closes and completes the circuit to 'O' relay through the normally closed switches on zero position 'Bonus' unit, 'AX', and 'Q' relays. 'O' relay locks-in through its own switch and a switch on motor 2B. When 'O' relay is energized, motor 4C actuates the ball return coil (which kicks the ball onto the runway) through a switch on 'O' and a normally closed switch on 'BX' relay. The ball is now on the runway and is ready to be put into play.
9. The remaining balls that enter the outhole are kicked across the trough switch which pulls in 'P' relay. 'P' relay runs the motor. Switches on 'F', 'U', motor 2C, 'P', 'BX', and motor 1A advances the 'Player' unit the required number of steps determined by the 'Player' unit switches and the 'Coin' unit.

[Hammond1]

Thank you for posting the sequence. The step solenoid is incorrectly energized immediately after the reset solenoid on the coin stepper unit. I think that perhaps the U relay is not properly de-energized as described at the end of step #4. If I wait until the entire start-up sequence is complete and manually reset the coin stepper solenoid arm, the machine correctly goes to one player.

Interesting!

Mason

[Hammond1]

I'm working without a schematic, but I verified that the coin unit stepper solenoid (not the coin unit reset solenoid) is triggered from the U relay. I did some more tests, and the U relay is definitely not de-energizing as described in step #4 in the start-up sequence. If anyone has access to a schematic, I would appreciate some guidance as to how the U relay is supposed to be de-energized when relay is AX is activated. Is the U relay de-energized by AX, or is there a motor switch that temporarily disengages U?

Thanks in advance for the help!

[sylvain]

Next: Check relay contacts on the AX relay.
Make sure the normally open and normally closed contacts
are correct for the relay in each of the latched and tripped positions.

It is worth investing in a diagram, it certainly helps reducing troubleshooting time.

Good luck!
- Sylvain.

[ralfredo]

Hello Mason,
I know that this entry is more than 2 years old...
But could you solve your problem in the end?
If so, what was the problem? Was it the AX relay?
I have a Royal Flush and currently I have exactly the same problem ....
Thanks and Greetings
Ralf

[Guard]

Me too.....

[Guard]

I've checked all avenues that my tiny brain can think of.............curious if the coin unit jumping up one spot on start up could have something to do with the way the coin units were wired when they took them out years ago? If I unhook the coin door and hit first ball or start it doesn't move. [of course game doesn't start either but im stuck]

[sylvain]

Can you take a picture of the start button switch inside the cash door/cabinet?
Just in-case someone wired an extra non-factory switch to it to simulate a coin drop while pressing the start button...

Google AI indicates the following - although the Coin Unit is usually located in the cabinet and not in the backbox:
AI Overview
A Gottlieb Surf Champ (1976) pinball machine that is stuck in 2-player mode usually indicates a malfunctioning Coin Unit or a stuck "Add Player" relay, preventing the machine from properly resetting to 1-player. Clean and adjust the coin unit in the backbox, ensuring it moves freely, and check for a faulty "U" relay.
Troubleshooting Steps for 2-Player Lock:
Service the Coin Unit: This is the most common cause. The unit (located on the motor board or behind the backbox) may be sticky or not stepping down correctly. Clean the rivets and wiper with high-percentage alcohol (do not lubricate).
Check the "U" Relay: If this relay stays energized, the game defaults to 2 players.
Player Unit Adjustment: Clean and ensure the player unit in the backbox is stepping freely. Dirty or misaligned contacts can prevent the game from advancing properly through the player 1/ball 1 sequence.
Start Sequence: Ensure the game is resetting correctly; if the "Add Player" coil engages too many times due to a bad switch, it will falsely add players.
If the game skips players or always starts with two, it is almost certainly a mechanical failure in the coin unit or a stuck switch, not a design feature.

[Guard]

Question.....should the coil be getting power even though the game is turned off? I don't mean it's activating, but twice now I've gotten a little "love ya' Bruce" from the power tabs, even though the game is shut off.
Been unplugging it now when I reach in....

[sylvain]

Question.....should the coil be getting power even though the game is turned off? I don't mean it's activating, but twice now I've gotten a little "love ya' Bruce" from the power tabs, even though the game is shut off.
Been unplugging it now when I reach in....

Should not, unless the ground prong has been cut and the plug now connects to the 120VAC 'hot' side on the wall plug on the unswitched side of the pinball power, as highlighted in yellow on the right side of the Surfer schematics extract below:

Only two coils should have their tabs 'hot' compared to floor ground with the machine OFF in this reversed scenario: Target Bank Reset and Sequence Bank Reset, according to the schematics, assuming a good transformer and original wiring.

Here's a picture of expected wall plug wiring connectivity: hot, neutral and ground - assuming its wiring is correct.

Wall_plug.PNG (21 KiB) Viewed 627 times

The idea would be to ensure that the ON/OFF switch-of the pinball connects to the hot prong of the cord/ wall plug to avoid this 'shocking' issue with power off.
I am sure semicolin here or others could chime-in with better guidance or suggestions.
In the mean time, you are doing the right thing: unplug the machine before reaching-in !

[Guard]

Starting to look like all roads lead to motor switch 1c......if I put a little pressure on the stack while starting it does not activate the add player on the coin unit and starts at one player. Looks like I'll have to take a couple stacks off the motor above it to reach it, which will be a first for me, wish it was my game so I wouldn't worry about screwing it up.

[Guard]

So Sparky was here for a bit and it was motor 1C. Game now starts as its should....

Now the game doesn't stop, no game over and was just kicking out balls and advancing into the void. so I checked the usual suspects and now game still doesn't end when I activate the ball trough but instead of kicking out the ball it gives a replay and spins the motor. Heavy sigh.....

[sylvain]

Now the game doesn't stop, no game over and was just kicking out balls and advancing into the void. so I checked the usual suspects and now game still doesn't end when I activate the ball trough but instead of kicking out the ball it gives a replay and spins the motor. Heavy sigh.....

I would check the contacts on the Player Unit in the head (rivets and springs contacts) to ensure they are clean and make good contact.
And also ensure the Last Ball (BK) relay interlock works properly and has its contacts stack tight and contacts properly adjusted.
Too bad I am so far and have no time,,,
Good luck!