Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

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semicolin
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Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:55 pm

So some of the controlled lamps on my Centaur 2 are misbehaving. When they are supposed to be off, they flicker in a repeating pattern. They work fine when they should be on. This doesn't only happen with these two lamps; other lamps are affected depending on what's happening in the game.

I recorded a video of this happening.
Last edited by semicolin on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby sylvain » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:48 pm

I would start by checking connectors, pins (inside housing) and header solder joints for:
- MPU J1 pins 12 to 19 for Controlled Lamps Data and Addresses outputs
- Main Lamp Driver connector J4 Lamp Data and Addresses Inputs.

Are these LEDs or original lamps?

Good luck!
-Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:53 am

To answer your questions first: They are LEDs, but I have installed resistors and SCR Iₕ doesn't appear to be an issue.

My thoughts: Pretty sure I've ruled out headers A5J4 and A4J1; a good poke/wiggle/shimmy doesn't affect the end result. I can probably rule out A5J4 entirely; I replaced both parts last week because of a separate issue but this problem predates that repair.

Every lamp on the playfield independently goes ON when it's supposed to fire, and OFF when it isn't. No crossed wires. The problem is that some fire occasionally when they aren't supposed to, and this changes depending on which other lamps are lit.

Here is an additional example:



I'm not inclined to think it's bad 4514 decoders considering that multiple decoders are involved, but that they're getting bad data. If there was a broken header or trace on the data/address bus between the MPU and driver board, I feel like it would impact multiple lamps in unison and far more intrusively than this. It could be a problem with the 6820/1 PIA but I don't know if that would manifest itself in this way. Outta my experience here.
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby HPR Pinball » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:12 pm

Try to isolate the problem. Plug only those problematics lights and look what happen, if they still flash that way, the problem is most probably related directly to their circuits. If they act normally, plug the others one by one, or connectors by connectors. I feel that there's an interactions between others lights, maybe a small short somewhere.

ps: Even if you wiggle the connectors a lot, that doesn't mean you don't have a cold solder problem.
Be sure to reflow all solders on your light circuit boards, cracks can be invisible to eyes and not detected by shaking the connectors.
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:22 pm

Eliminated headers and PIAs as the issue.

I'm taking a look at the power supply now- the 6.5VDC is testing far too low. I've got a rectifier to replace before anything else happens.
Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
Wanted: Widebody cocktail cabinet, ≥ 36", Bally Elektra, Williams Rollergames

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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:31 pm

Solved! Two things that had to be fixed:
1) Shorted bridge rectifier on the rectifier board was causing only a half wave to hit the lights.
This fixed a few things:
-increased brightness of all of the controlled lamps
-increased stability of all the lamps: no dimming or flicker
-no more hum from transformer. The failed diode was likely causing the transformer to short out during 1/2 of the wave, collapsing the field and making an audible vibration in the core
-no hum from audio amplifier circuit. The DC lamps were operating on a half-wave, so they were making interference that the amps were picking up

So: lots of problems solved, except no impact on the blinking lights, which actually got worse.

Tested the output from the LM353 on the solenoid/regulator board. Rock solid 5V. Tested it at test points on the MPU, Aux driver, squawk and talk, main lamp driver. Rock solid 5V. Tested it at Vdd of one of the 4514 latching decoders: 3V. Bingo! Same on all four. Turns out the trace was bad after the test point on the lamp driver board.

So the 4514 decoders *were* failing because of low voltage, and I happened to find and fix a bunch of other issues on the way.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Thanks for being a part of this. It was a slice.

(And check out the before and after. I think it might have got hot. New one is a bit beefier.)
E4EABBDF-DB17-45F9-8D8B-7B472FA1E29D.jpeg

8C7616FA-F45A-4963-AE9E-2031179CA196.jpeg
Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby sylvain » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:07 pm

Interesting, thanks for having posted the follow-up and solution to the multiple problems.

Re: the half baked bridge rectifier. Was it on the original Bally power supply (and properly attached to the back metal plate with thermal grease?)
Or was it on this Rottendog replacement power supply?

Seems to me that the probable initial failure mode was overheating that lead to one diode or more either opening or shorting inside the bridge.
I always felt those specific replacement power supplies have at least one bridge rectifier not properly cooled, e.g. using too small of a heatsink,
specially if the machine still had #44 bulbs at the time. Of course, if now all LEDed for the controlled lamps, the current heatsink is fine.

Thank you,
-Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:15 am

Correct- it was the Rottendog supply with a GBPC2506W bridge rectifier and no heatsink at all, driving incandescent lamps. The new one is a GBPC3504W driving LEDs. I'll put the FLIR on it tonight.

In the meantime, check out R11 on the MPU board! Smokin'!
D19B8D0B-3F4D-4685-8C59-F35E559A3530.jpeg
D19B8D0B-3F4D-4685-8C59-F35E559A3530.jpeg (82.28 KiB) Viewed 1013 times

D566DB53-2DD4-4EAB-A242-A205FFBE84F4.jpeg
Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
Wanted: Widebody cocktail cabinet, ≥ 36", Bally Elektra, Williams Rollergames

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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby cait001 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:52 am

your FLIR method is far superior to my method of "licking my finger and touching the board components"
PINS: GTB Super Soccer (lent), GTB Sure Shot, BLY Mousin' Around, WMS No Good Gofers, WMS Triple Strike (loan)
COUNTERTOP: 1934 PAMCO Contact Master, 1936 Bally Challenger (lent), 1934 Rock-Ola World's Series, 1934 Bally Signal Jr, 1934 Bally Signal Sr (lent), 1950 Culp Bridge Ball, 1964 Daiwa Pachinko, 1972 CC Mini-Baseball (loan), 1975 Satomi Arrangeball, 1930 Fields Five Jacks, 1931 Pace Base Ball, 1931 Pace Whiz Ball, 1932 Bally Goofy, 1978 Haiwa Pachinko
WANTED: スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Bell-Fruit Cascade, 1932 Ballyround
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:03 pm

That'll sizzle your fizzle
Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
Wanted: Widebody cocktail cabinet, ≥ 36", Bally Elektra, Williams Rollergames

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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby cait001 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:55 pm

there's a reason most of my game list is purely mechanical!
PINS: GTB Super Soccer (lent), GTB Sure Shot, BLY Mousin' Around, WMS No Good Gofers, WMS Triple Strike (loan)
COUNTERTOP: 1934 PAMCO Contact Master, 1936 Bally Challenger (lent), 1934 Rock-Ola World's Series, 1934 Bally Signal Jr, 1934 Bally Signal Sr (lent), 1950 Culp Bridge Ball, 1964 Daiwa Pachinko, 1972 CC Mini-Baseball (loan), 1975 Satomi Arrangeball, 1930 Fields Five Jacks, 1931 Pace Base Ball, 1931 Pace Whiz Ball, 1932 Bally Goofy, 1978 Haiwa Pachinko
WANTED: スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Bell-Fruit Cascade, 1932 Ballyround
backglasses wanted: Fairy, Fire Queen, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Dark Planet, Strider, Astro Invader, R-Type (w/ship)
Pinball Women Ottawa -- Ottawa Pinball Map -- repair blog -- game ratings

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semicolin
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:09 pm

Max temperature 45.3°C after several hours under load. I would say that's a major improvement!
IR_2411.jpg
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Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
Wanted: Widebody cocktail cabinet, ≥ 36", Bally Elektra, Williams Rollergames

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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby cait001 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:08 pm

is it that 94724 chip the one showing as hot there?
PINS: GTB Super Soccer (lent), GTB Sure Shot, BLY Mousin' Around, WMS No Good Gofers, WMS Triple Strike (loan)
COUNTERTOP: 1934 PAMCO Contact Master, 1936 Bally Challenger (lent), 1934 Rock-Ola World's Series, 1934 Bally Signal Jr, 1934 Bally Signal Sr (lent), 1950 Culp Bridge Ball, 1964 Daiwa Pachinko, 1972 CC Mini-Baseball (loan), 1975 Satomi Arrangeball, 1930 Fields Five Jacks, 1931 Pace Base Ball, 1931 Pace Whiz Ball, 1932 Bally Goofy, 1978 Haiwa Pachinko
WANTED: スマートボール (Smart Ball), payazzo/kronespill, Bell-Fruit Cascade, 1932 Ballyround
backglasses wanted: Fairy, Fire Queen, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Dark Planet, Strider, Astro Invader, R-Type (w/ship)
Pinball Women Ottawa -- Ottawa Pinball Map -- repair blog -- game ratings

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semicolin
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Re: Bally Controlled Lamp Flicker

Postby semicolin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:57 pm

No, those are the power resistors on the rectifier board.
Sharing my space with: Stern Meteor, Gottlieb Tag Team, Interflip Dragon, Bally Centaur II, Street Fighter cab w/Premium 8
Wanted: Widebody cocktail cabinet, ≥ 36", Bally Elektra, Williams Rollergames



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