Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Restoration/upgrades/fixes/fabrication of pins and vids
User avatar
cap
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:19 pm
Location: Laval
Been liked: 30 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by cap »

redketchup wrote:I have couple question...

the only diode i didn't cange on the grey row is the one from the Top Left Drop traget (accessibility problem) ... this one is in the same row drop target #2 (the one that make the problem happen)... TLD is in the same column of the loop bonus drop target (activated with the #2 drop)... this one is in the same row the left outhole switch (the one that activated the bonus count and switch to ball#2) Is it possible a diode problem goes from column to row... like that?
Yes, you often find problems in a row, a column, or the 4 corners of a rectangle in the switch matrix.
Judge Dredd, Road Show, Last Action Hero, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Stargate, F14 Tomcat

User avatar
DrDude
MAACA Super Contributor
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick/Ottawa
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by DrDude »

redketchup wrote:and other question...

Can I change diode IN4004 with the smaller one that goes on bally switch matrix...
I have never done this, but honestly they should be compatible since the MPUs are so very similar..
Grant Goodes
Stern: Meteor, Lightning, Nineball, Cheetah, Seawitch, Catacomb
Bally: Fathom x 2, Centaur
Gottlieb: Black Hole
Wanted: Balls-a-Poppin, Catacomb slingshot plastics
Lust-worthy: Dragonfist, Solar Fire, Funhouse, Skateball, Capersville

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

Make some progress tonight

After changing all the drop target diode... no change.

I disconnect j3 on the MPU... no change.

I put the game in test mode and with the manuel, i check all the switch with the number in the manuel. everything was ok except the #2 drop target, was supposed to be #10 and it was #2 (#2 is the number for the middle coin switch... all the other switch was ok. The #2 drop target was the one causing my problem.

So I check for something wrong around it, move some wire, unscrew the drop target assembly to see if it goes away... nothing, still see #2 and suposed to be #10. I notice when i touch both blade of the switch, without touching the activating arm of the drop target, the #2 go away and the #10 apears.

After that, i decide to change the switch for the target. Look like my switch was short somewhere, everything was back to normal with the new one.

Now i need to find why my start button stop working when all the drop target from the right bank are down.
Last edited by redketchup on Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
HPR Pinball
MAACA OG
Posts: 7936
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:53 pm
Location: St-Rose, Laval
Has liked: 15 times
Been liked: 114 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by HPR Pinball »

As-tu déconnecté la switch middle du coin door pour voir?
The video game i want to play is always the one i don't have :FP:
Les arcades, j'suis tombé d'dans quand j'tait pti !! :-)

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

HPR Pinball wrote:As-tu déconnecté la switch middle du coin door pour voir?
Non, mais je vais essayer...
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

redketchup wrote:
HPR Pinball wrote:As-tu déconnecté la switch middle du coin door pour voir?
Non, mais je vais essayer...
Ce n’est pas la meme bank de drop que celle qui me causait les problemes avec le gameplay... la drop #2 est sur la grosse bank de 8 drop... la switch de start, ne marche pas si la bank de droite est completement abaissé.

Je vais quand meme essayer car on ne sait jamais
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

the last problem...

I have a probleme with my start button... If all the drop on the right bank drop target are down, when I press the start button... the game reboot. If a one, two or all drop target are up... I can start the game and everything work like it should...

Already change the diode on the start switch, all drop target, tilt and slam switch. I also change the switch itself. I check closely for any short on the coin door.

If I goes in test switch mode, the # associated with the start button is Ok, idem if I check it with all the drop down...

Finally, if i touch the tilt switch or slam switch, the game reboot.

Any idea
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
DrDude
MAACA Super Contributor
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick/Ottawa
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by DrDude »

redketchup wrote:the last problem...

I have a probleme with my start button... If all the drop on the right bank drop target are down, when I press the start button... the game reboot. If a one, two or all drop target are up... I can start the game and everything work like it should...

Already change the diode on the start switch, all drop target, tilt and slam switch. I also change the switch itself. I check closely for any short on the coin door.

If I goes in test switch mode, the # associated with the start button is Ok, idem if I check it with all the drop down...

Finally, if i touch the tilt switch or slam switch, the game reboot.

Any idea
Hmmm. That last is interesting: I suggests that there is a floating ground or something like that which causes any bit of noise on those two switches to give a signal to the MPU making it think there was a slam. What happens in switch test-mode when you touch the tilt- or slam-switches? Does the display register a switch closure?
Grant Goodes
Stern: Meteor, Lightning, Nineball, Cheetah, Seawitch, Catacomb
Bally: Fathom x 2, Centaur
Gottlieb: Black Hole
Wanted: Balls-a-Poppin, Catacomb slingshot plastics
Lust-worthy: Dragonfist, Solar Fire, Funhouse, Skateball, Capersville

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

Last night, I check all the switch in test mode and everything was ok (all coin door switch show the good number)
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Has liked: 57 times
Been liked: 59 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by sylvain »

Make sure the start button has fish paper or something isolating it from the start switch blade contact itself inside the cash door.
Do you have the latest available ROMs for it?
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for 40+ years already.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

sylvain wrote:Make sure the start button has fish paper or something isolating it from the start switch blade contact itself inside the cash door.
Do you have the latest available ROMs for it?
I will try to remove the switch from the coin door to see if it's help... but I already change the switch for an other one i have in stock
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Has liked: 57 times
Been liked: 59 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by sylvain »

What about if you press the start button with a glove or a plastic isolating piece, does the game still reboot with the 3 drop targets down?
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for 40+ years already.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

sylvain wrote:What about if you press the start button with a glove or a plastic isolating piece, does the game still reboot with the 3 drop targets down?
Will try this also... I don't know... I'm at work today, collecting info for the week-end ! Lol
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

Just also remember that I change the coin door bulb socket for one litlle bit shorter... will have a look to be sure there is none touching the frame
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

sylvain wrote:What about if you press the start button with a glove or a plastic isolating piece, does the game still reboot with the 3 drop targets down?
No change with this, reboot when i start the game with a plastic pen

I also really look carefully for a short with the light socket and there is nothing there, everything look good!
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Has liked: 57 times
Been liked: 59 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by sylvain »

...sounds like the Credit/Start button is acting like the SLAM switch...

… or, there is a short on one of the coil (shorted or backwards diode) which lowers the power internally briefly
when the machine tries to start and reset its drop targets, that gets the machine to reboot, without blowing the Solenoid fuse?
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for 40+ years already.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

sylvain wrote:...sounds like the Credit/Start button is acting like the SLAM switch...

… or, there is a short on one of the coil (shorted or backwards diode) which lowers the power internally briefly
when the machine tries to start and reset its drop targets, that gets the machine to reboot, without blowing the Solenoid fuse?

But when there is only one drop up, the bank reset and eveything start normally
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Has liked: 57 times
Been liked: 59 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by sylvain »

OK then the switch matrix issue causes a SLAM switch bogus detection when the credit button is pressed when the 3 drops are down...

What I would do at this stage is to go to switch test mode again and test the cash door switches individually, with the three drop targets down.
Interesting that there is a switch matrix issue in-between the playfield J2 and cabinet J3 switch connectors...
I assume you carefully checked the orientation of all diodes on that row/column?
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for 40+ years already.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

User avatar
DrDude
MAACA Super Contributor
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick/Ottawa
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by DrDude »

sylvain wrote:...sounds like the Credit/Start button is acting like the SLAM switch...

… or, there is a short on one of the coil (shorted or backwards diode) which lowers the power internally briefly
when the machine tries to start and reset its drop targets, that gets the machine to reboot, without blowing the Solenoid fuse?
I don't think this theory (power-spike on the solenoid drive circuit) can be the problem, as the game will ALWAYS reset the bank on game-start, regardless of how many targets are down (and indeed, even if none are down!)

I don't know what MPU you're running, Gino, but I have seen issues with the 5101 NVRAM or 6810 RAM being faulty, causing strange switch-matrix errors, since the state of the switches is stored in RAM, and in particular things like the concept of "all drops are down, time to reset the bank" is mediated by RAM. Worth trying to swap-out the RAM chips if you're on an MPU-200
Grant Goodes
Stern: Meteor, Lightning, Nineball, Cheetah, Seawitch, Catacomb
Bally: Fathom x 2, Centaur
Gottlieb: Black Hole
Wanted: Balls-a-Poppin, Catacomb slingshot plastics
Lust-worthy: Dragonfist, Solar Fire, Funhouse, Skateball, Capersville

User avatar
sylvain
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:39 am
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Has liked: 57 times
Been liked: 59 times

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by sylvain »

Or, it was a maybe a ROM/EPROM software bug in one of the old version :)

Are you running the latest Nine Ball EPROM version on your MPU?

... just trying to eliminate possibilities...
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for 40+ years already.
Serious and fun hobby, powerful nostalgia !

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

I run an original MPU 200. game was working before playfield swap and coin door resto... everything was disassemble for 4 month... so I assumed anything can happen...

Will try the coin switch test before and try to swap the MPU for an other one know working
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

Thank you very much for your help... I feel less alone with this!
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

User avatar
DrDude
MAACA Super Contributor
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick/Ottawa
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by DrDude »

redketchup wrote:I run an original MPU 200. game was working before playfield swap and coin door resto... everything was disassemble for 4 month... so I assumed anything can happen...

Will try the coin switch test before and try to swap the MPU for an other one know working
Yeah, the RAM theory was a stretch, but MPU-200 can have quirks with dodgey 5101 chips!

Given the history (problem cropped up after playfield-swap/door-resto), it's possible you've got a wiring error on the harness: Basically, possible swap of one or more pins on the main harness connectors. That is a real pain to find, as the wire-colours/stripes are very hard to see, but you only care about the switch-matrix row/column lines, and that's only a double-handful of wires to check.
Grant Goodes
Stern: Meteor, Lightning, Nineball, Cheetah, Seawitch, Catacomb
Bally: Fathom x 2, Centaur
Gottlieb: Black Hole
Wanted: Balls-a-Poppin, Catacomb slingshot plastics
Lust-worthy: Dragonfist, Solar Fire, Funhouse, Skateball, Capersville

User avatar
DrDude
MAACA Super Contributor
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick/Ottawa
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by DrDude »

redketchup wrote:Thank you very much for your help... I feel less alone with this!
Gino, it's your Nineball that we care about, not so much you!

(just kidding..)
Grant Goodes
Stern: Meteor, Lightning, Nineball, Cheetah, Seawitch, Catacomb
Bally: Fathom x 2, Centaur
Gottlieb: Black Hole
Wanted: Balls-a-Poppin, Catacomb slingshot plastics
Lust-worthy: Dragonfist, Solar Fire, Funhouse, Skateball, Capersville

User avatar
redketchup
MAACA Mega Contributor
Posts: 4882
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
Location: Laval,Qc
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 143 times
Contact:

Re: Nineball... try to make the magic happen again

Post by redketchup »

DrDude wrote:
redketchup wrote:Thank you very much for your help... I feel less alone with this!
Gino, it's your Nineball that we care about, not so much you!

(just kidding..)
LOL!
Bally Centaur, Fathom, Stern Big Game, Flight 2000, Quicksilver, Catacomb, Stargazer, Nineball, Metallica Pro, Iron Maiden Pro, Wurlitzer 41, 700, 750e, 1100, 1900, 1700, Rockola 1428, tempo 1, seeburg HF 100R, VL 200, Ami I
To see it: http://www.pinballowners.com/redketchup

Post Reply