Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Talk about anything that you would like.

Do you think North Star should restore extra-ball and replay settings?

Indifferent
10
20%
Yes, please!
41
80%
 
Total votes: 51

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal)

Post by cap »

Fifty wrote:This is getting more depressing with each post.
This is all part of the plan to keep Loto-Quebec's monopoly because if you win anything they call it a lottery or gambling. Yeah right, then my salary is also lottery and gambling.
Fifty wrote:Even then, an extra ball is part of gameplay. I've never referred to it as a FREE ball. It's just something you earn in game, just like you would earn 100 points. Laws are ridiculous. If a ball drains at North Star without hitting anything are the Ball Saves turned off? You lost a ball. It is giving you a FREE plunge.
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by Fifty »

Ridiculous. I wonder if Hasbro (formerly Parker Brothers) pays a fee every time someone lands on this space in Quebec. :roll:
monopoly.jpg
Chris Silver wrote:The one thing I do know, even if I was a millionaire there is no feeling better than hearing that coil go off when you win a free game.
Agreed, unless it's the new Stern squelch sound.

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by cap »

Did anyone here read the new regulation to find the part that talks about free games? I wonder what it says exactly.
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by semicolin »

cap wrote:Did anyone here read the new regulation to find the part that talks about free games? I wonder what it says exactly.
Here it is. http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/ShowDo ... ,%20r.%201

Pinball machines are classified explicitly under 2.3(a) as a "Class B" device, whether or not they award free games. It appears at first glance that someone has read the legislation and thinks that pinball machines fall into a different category if they award free games per items (c) through (e). This reading would be incorrect. Pinball machines, whether or not they award free games, are always classified the same way, and carry an annual duty of $343(indexed annually) per active license at an establishment. Twenty machines on premises equals twenty licenses, but those do not increase if the operator takes one out and put another in.

What is being described above in this thread does not match my understanding of the legislation as published on the Government of Quebec's website, which does seem very clear.

So this means one (or more) of four things:
  1. I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm stupid and I'm not a lawyer
  2. someone got poor legal advice, or did not seek legal advice at all and misunderstood the legislation
  3. someone is trying to sneak around licensing fees and pay only a single license by trying to pretend their individual (a)pinball machines are actually (b)a group of entertainment machines that award no prizes, which is illegal
  4. someone wants to decrease play time per token to increase revenue and blaming the government is easier than saying so directly

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by hfpinball »

semicolin wrote:
cap wrote:Did anyone here read the new regulation to find the part that talks about free games? I wonder what it says exactly.
Here it is. http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/ShowDo ... ,%20r.%201

Pinball machines are classified explicitly under 2.3(a) as a "Class B" device, whether or not they award free games. It appears at first glance that someone has read the legislation and thinks that pinball machines fall into a different category if they award free games per items (c) through (e). This reading would be incorrect. Pinball machines, whether or not they award free games, are always classified the same way, and carry an annual duty of $343(indexed annually) per active license at an establishment. Twenty machines on premises equals twenty licenses, but those do not increase if the operator takes one out and put another in.

What is being described above in this thread does not match my understanding of the legislation as published on the Government of Quebec's website, which does seem very clear.

So this means one (or more) of four things:
  1. I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm stupid and I'm not a lawyer
  2. someone got poor legal advice, or did not seek legal advice at all and misunderstood the legislation
  3. someone is trying to sneak around licensing fees and pay only a single license by trying to pretend their individual (a)pinball machines are actually (b)a group of entertainment machines that award no prizes, which is illegal
  4. someone wants to decrease play time per token to increase revenue and blaming the government is easier than saying so directly
I read somewhere that this 343$ per machine was no longer an issue, unless i misread. Is it still the case every machine need to have this 343$ license? And where this 145$ for free play come from exactly?

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by cap »

That fee is way too high under the new rules.

e) You might be reading the old regulation.
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by semicolin »

cap wrote:That fee is way too high under the new rules.

e) You might be reading the old regulation.
Yes! Got anything newer?

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by cap »

semicolin wrote:
cap wrote:That fee is way too high under the new rules.

e) You might be reading the old regulation.
Yes! Got anything newer?
I don't have the new rules, that's why I asked.
For reference, this is the thread that broke the news in August.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25618
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by HPR Pinball »

2 good players can play those modern Stern many hours with special and extra-ball enable.

Back in the mid 80's me and my friend played pinballs all day long for 25 cents each.
The video game i want to play is always the one i don't have :FP:
Les arcades, j'suis tombé d'dans quand j'tait pti !! :-)

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by nostalgiaqc »

Chris Silver wrote: The one thing I do know, even if I was a millionnaire there is no feeling better than hearing that coil go off when you win a free game.
True ,that knocker allways brings us back to nostalgia !
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by OTTOgd »

I had to choose 'Indifferent' because I never expect to win a free game. Still don't have expectations in a pay-per-game arcade. Heck, just the other day I won 4 extra credits on a couple pins (GotG; Aerosmith) at Rec Room @ Square One and gave them away.

... BUT I do appreciate Extra Balls! Generally speaking, they're earned as part of the single-credit gameplay! Focused achievement and emotionally rewarding, imho.

However, hearing the knocker is awesome. Loud recognition of my ability and/or luck! Don't have to give me a credit ... just make people turn their heads! ... or make me think people are impressed. :)

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by uberhare »

As a teenager I recall how much fun it was to find a newish machine on location where the extra ball or free game thresholds were still set fairly low. :) It certainly is an element of pinball and would take away from the experience.
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by cap »

HPR Pinball wrote:2 good players can play those modern Stern many hours with special and extra-ball enable.
Back in the mid 80's me and my friend played pinballs all day long for 25 cents each.
Nothing would please me more than to learn from the experts. That was the main point why I joined the MPL.
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by cap »

uberhare wrote:As a teenager I recall how much fun it was to find a newish machine on location where the extra ball or free game thresholds were still set fairly low. :) It certainly is an element of pinball and would take away from the experience.
Reminds me how excited I was when I realized the free game threshold was insanely low for the Shrek machine at La Ronde this summer.
Then reality sets in, the threshold was so low possibly because that machine never worked all summer long.
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by mbudman »

I have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to visit pinball places all over the world, from my favorite in Hungary (http://www.flippermuzeum.hu/en/), Silverball museum is Asburiy-park ,NJ (https://www.silverballmuseum.com/asbury-park/, and even the Musee meanique at the fisherman's wharf in San Francsico (https://museemecanique.com/).

In addition, I have been to Allentown and the local pinball get together / events (Ottawa, Hawkesbury).

They ALL have one thing in common:

great pinball, extra-ball feature and the possibility to win a free game.

Northstar has amazing pins in spectacular condition, but it just is not pinball without...

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by HPR Pinball »

Pinball is all about gambling, casual players just shoot anywhere and get extra ball by luck :lol: :lol:
The video game i want to play is always the one i don't have :FP:
Les arcades, j'suis tombé d'dans quand j'tait pti !! :-)

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by HPR Pinball »

cap wrote:
HPR Pinball wrote:2 good players can play those modern Stern many hours with special and extra-ball enable.
Back in the mid 80's me and my friend played pinballs all day long for 25 cents each.
Nothing would please me more than to learn from the experts. That was the main point why I joined the MPL.
I won 2 free games without any effort at Timout playing AFM because threshold was low because lot of casual players. Imagine 2 really good players with more motivation how much they can play with 1 credit, surely 2 hour easy.

I know MrHide usually quit playing because he is tired of winning free game :lol:

What kind of money a Barcade can make with modern Stern and good players.
The video game i want to play is always the one i don't have :FP:
Les arcades, j'suis tombé d'dans quand j'tait pti !! :-)

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by joblo »

I've only been in this hobby for a couple of years now but I was very HAPPY to find North Star a couple of years ago, not only because it's pretty much the only real "barcade" in the GMA area, but they are a great bunch of guys who love pinball who run the place. They run launch tournaments, they hold IPFA events, they are the only place with over 10 pins on location and they're always switching them out. I go there because I love to try the new games, I enjoy playing in the tournaments now and again, I enjoy chatting with the guys about pinball and I could give a __FLYING FIG__ if I get extra balls or free plays on their games (especially if they're doing it because it's the government that's forcing them to do so). You know what I do when I wanna get a "Free Play"? I reach down into my pocket, grab 1 token/dollar and put it into their machine. And voila! New game AND I get to support an awesome local pinball spot! Yeah, it's not free, but neither is running a business that focuses on a niche hobby.

I wish more folks in the Montreal Pinball Community would come in here and praise North Star for being around, for being one of the spots that kept pinball going for the past 4 years in Montreal and for providing a place for tournaments for locals who wanna learn -- like moi. Everyone has a right to their opinion but it would be nice if you guys looked at the "big picture" of the situation (govn't involvement, their only true barcade around, etc...) and not nitpick something insignificant as the "lack of free plays". That's my 2 cents, of course. Personally, I prefer to tell my friends about North Star, bring new people there to grow the hobby and give bigger tips than usual when there because I WANT TO SUPPORT LOCAL PINBALL HALLS!

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal)

Post by steamfitter »

mbudman wrote:Yeah, but they get the tax back...

Less than $3/ week per machine
$145 divided by 365 days equals $0.40 per machine , times 10 machines $4.00 a day . 4 coin drops a day .

Getting the knocker working at home is always nice but when you pay to play hearing the knocker is some kind of exiting rush.

But with the cost of living now , people do what they need to survive .Not cheap to run a business

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by TwilightZone »

HPR Pinball wrote:2 good players can play those modern Stern many hours with special and extra-ball enable.

Back in the mid 80's me and my friend played pinballs all day long for 25 cents each.
You can adjust the settings so the points to earn an extra ball increase each time it is earned, I believe. At minimum you can adjust the max number of extra balls and the initial points to earn the extra ball.

I think extra balls are a must especially with the newer games. Always a rush to earn and makes the game fun when competing.

Free games are great to earn and point level can be set to increase when earned, so if you have alot of good players it will get increasingly difficult to earn.

North Star could play with the settings to keep extra balls and free games while still making a profit. Limit the number of extra balls, set specials to points not extra balls, and set free games to increase as earned.

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by Apostle »

As someone who plays at North Star every week, I'd rather have them succeed so I can continue to play machines in better condition than I've found anywhere week in and out. They constantly rotate games and are buying the new ones so they can grow the hobby we all love in the area. We all like a free game or an extra ball (unless everyone is really good in a 4 player game!), but I'd rather have the opportunity to keep playing different games with my friends and know there will be new games just a few weeks away. To be honest, within a few short weeks of regular play, I'd all but forgotten about the change.

As folks are pointing out, frustration should be focused on the permits, not the business impacted by them. So many bars and restaurants on St Laurent open and are forced to close within a year, none of us truly know how these fees impact the business. But to have the luxury of an awesome bar, with my hobby, in my neighbourhood, is just incredible. I hope everyone can overcome the frustration and continue to support local business and enable them to grow the hobby we all love. Pinball's continued success and growth is reliant on it's prevalence in society and culture, in our city, that's North Star.

I'm sure you're reading this, so thank you to all the team for your continued hard work to keep the games and bar in the best shape possible. If I see Adam rolling up to the bar in a Ferrari, I'll come back and revise my post. ;)

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by pinheadpat »

••• I find that taking that part out of the game as a bit of an odd way to save or make a few bucks ••• If it is a significant $$$ difference in the long-run to make the bar more profitable, there might be other ways around that without sacrificing the game feature bonuses. I never would have though that this would get so much traction as a post, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that the greater majority of pinball aficionados and heavy enthusiasts definitely appreciate and even thrive to get that free-game / extra ball / and mission complete carrot at the end of the rope. Like the Paul McCartney's song goes " Ou est le Soleil, dans ma tête ". It's what keeps the game even more interesting. The carrot! I personally just love playin' the game and don't even look at score ( barely ) when playing at home on my machines. But when playing on machines I don't normally play, and in a place dedicated the game, I do go out to experience the game the way it should be played ; which does mean with all the bells and whistles of bonus, extra balls, free games. It's how we grew up in the bowling alleys and arcades. I guess it all depends what the North Star wants to attract as customers and how fun it should be. If it's just meant to attract tourists that play once and leave the city, no worries, make the games bare-bones. But when you consider that players, collectors, freaks, enthusiasts and fans play there and spread the word (or not) and may have even greatly built the reputation of the bar ( or not ) there's another element to considered. Ultimately for that price per permit ( per machine ) that works-out to two dollars per week/per machine, it can’t be about price it’s got to be about something else like projected target audience or dynamic turnover or something else. I totally love, respect and worship what the North Star has accomplished and will still be very pleased to spread the gospel to as many souls as I can, regardless of the decision. From my player perspective, I do prefer all game features active, otherwise it’s like reading a book but skipping some super chapters. Or maybe like watching a Tarantino flic but skipping the shootout scenes. You’d still be getting the ruff idea of the movie but missing some super juicy bits. Thanks regardless for bringing a pinball bar to life in MTL and your contribution to keeping the game alive.
Last edited by pinheadpat on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:24 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by Vanderzam »

Hi guys,

I'm not going to argue about Northstar’s decision. First because it's their choice, and I hope they took the time to evaluate the saving versus the impact on their customers (mostly regular and partly hardcore, as I understood from what I read in this thread). And secondly because I'm unfortunately not a pinball afficionado. Those who know me know it, my hobby is arcades.

But anyway, if you have any interest in the exact new legislation (since last November), I had the "chance" to speak -again- over the phone with an official from the RACJ (Régie des Alcools, des Courses et des Jeux) just last week (concerning my project opening this year, which will contain a pretty decent selection of fully operational vintage arcade cabinets.)

First of all, leaving them on "free play" but asking a cover charge at the entrance won't change a thing. You cannot avoid Quebec's legislation with this gimmick. The only way to bypass the law is if your machines are on free play, and no cover or fee is demanded. Theoretically, a customer must be able to enter your establishment, walk directly to your machines, and start a game without having to spend a dime on anything.

So if you make money with your machines, either directly or through some kind of fee, you have to comply with the law.

And the law states that as soon as the gaming machine (arcade, pinball or redemption) allows for a "chance to win" (additional playing time or free games), it must be registered. The cost is $115 per machine per year. A $234 annual license fee is also required. Only one licence per establishment. All of this for the noble purpose of "preventing gambling addiction.”

As you can see, the definition of what the game can offer is particularly muddy. For them, a machine that simply gives gaming pleasure doesn't need registration. But as soon as there's a chance of winning, even if it's only a free game, it's the devil incarnate. So you can put 473 quarters into an unregistered Final Fight cab, trying to make it to the final stage, but if you win an extra ball playing a single game on an Indiana Jones pinball, it has to be registered. Dah? Playing a game necessarily means winning (or losing). That's the essence of what gaming is all about, isn't it? Whether it's money, points, high score, extra balls, finishing all stages, beating your best buddy, simple pride, or even a Lightning McQueen plush for your kid, the deepest motivation will always be related to the idea of obtaining something. It's human nature.

So thank you good government, you got it all figured out. Don’t let a nostalgic 43 year old guy visit my place and win an extra life on a vintage Pacman machine ‘cause it could turn him into a dropout, spending his paychecks in lotteries and casinos…
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Re: Northstar Pinball bar (Montreal), no free games

Post by cap »

Thanks Vanderzam, that was most enlightening.
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