Wanted: isolation transformer

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Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

Anyone have an isolation transformer I can have?
Working on a 1966 game where the only thing separating the player from line voltage is a small piece of fish paper.
Metal start button & line voltage to the door.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by Pindude152 »

I have a few. You can take one off my hands :-)
Wanted: Bally 20 hole Bingo machine: Orient, London, Safari, Super 7, Bonus 7 or Hawaii.
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Williams: Pot 'O' gold, Beat the clock
Rally Play Company of Nice France: Any Flip Tronic(s) era machine produced between 1966 and 1969


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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

Thanks!
WANTED: 21 (1946 Duval), NSM Freispiel Sieg Super-Match, 1972 Bally Continental Bingo slot machine
backglasses wanted: Star-Jet, Fire Queen, Fairy, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Strider, Varkon, Dark Planet, R-Type (w/ship), Quantum, Ninja (Sega)
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by Fifty »

I have one if you can't work out the timing with Pindude152.

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by pinhead »

I delivered one a few minutes ago, thanks to Lee I had a couple of spares.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

Thanks to JF and Geoff! Just got one from Geoff, who happened to be close by.
WANTED: 21 (1946 Duval), NSM Freispiel Sieg Super-Match, 1972 Bally Continental Bingo slot machine
backglasses wanted: Star-Jet, Fire Queen, Fairy, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Strider, Varkon, Dark Planet, R-Type (w/ship), Quantum, Ninja (Sega)
blog -- collection -- Pinball Women Ottawa -- Ottawa Pinball Map -- ratings

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by Delroy666 »

Forgive my ignorance of 1960's EMs, but why is there line voltage going to the door?
Have: Vids: Joust, Dig Dug, Centipede, Pac-Man, Donkey Kong Junior, Missile Command CT, Galaga, Scramble, Crystal Castles, Double Dragon, Time Crisis, Race Drivin', Bad Dudes; Pins: Comet, Firepower, Trident, Magic, Alien Poker
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cdnpinballer »

Ok, cool! I usually scrap a couple of these a year from the pins I get in... I for sure take them out of all SS pins..........

Thanks Geoff for 'recycling'.... :)

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

Delroy666 wrote:Forgive my ignorance of 1960's EMs, but why is there line voltage going to the door?
On these older ones the "starting up a game" stuff happens before the transformer. Guess that's how they did things back then?
The start relay passes the line voltage along to the transformer, and that is switched via the start button & credits, or coins being inserted, which is all connected on the line voltage circuit.

Check this post for the schematic: http://pinballnovice.blogspot.ca/2015/0 ... -park.html

Eventually in the 70s they learned to have the only things infront of transformer be the service outlet and the on/off switch :)
So, as to WHY? this machine has no on/off switch so since they hadn't thought to include one, the power to the rest of the machine is toggled by the proper game starting conditions.
Which makes sense, in a way, if you have no on/off switch.
But then... Why did it take so long to include a power switch?? LOL
WANTED: 21 (1946 Duval), NSM Freispiel Sieg Super-Match, 1972 Bally Continental Bingo slot machine
backglasses wanted: Star-Jet, Fire Queen, Fairy, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Strider, Varkon, Dark Planet, R-Type (w/ship), Quantum, Ninja (Sega)
blog -- collection -- Pinball Women Ottawa -- Ottawa Pinball Map -- ratings

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

cdnpinballer wrote:Ok, cool! I usually scrap a couple of these a year from the pins I get in... I for sure take them out of all SS pins..........

Thanks Geoff for 'recycling'.... :)
Thanks for yours, Lee. I've passed along a few myself, but had never worked on a machine from this era where it's actually a GREAT idea.
WANTED: 21 (1946 Duval), NSM Freispiel Sieg Super-Match, 1972 Bally Continental Bingo slot machine
backglasses wanted: Star-Jet, Fire Queen, Fairy, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Strider, Varkon, Dark Planet, R-Type (w/ship), Quantum, Ninja (Sega)
blog -- collection -- Pinball Women Ottawa -- Ottawa Pinball Map -- ratings

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by sylvain »

Great service to cait001 for the isolation transformer from the Pinball Community !

Additional info: Back then, electrical safety was not as important as today, so many games did not even have a ground wire,
and for simplicity, Gottlieb brought AC to the front door to start the game. They did put fish paper as an isolator between the switch and the door, and a warning label about the line voltage at the cash door, but this would not fly as safety mechanisms today !

Also, some of these machines do not have an OFF switch, but instead they do have a bounce switch that is operated by kicking under the cabinet to open the power circuit.

Cheers,
- Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

sylvain wrote: Also, some of these machines do not have an OFF switch, but instead they do have a bounce switch that is operated by kicking under the cabinet to open the power circuit.
Omfg is THAT what that is for? Wow wow wow, we were puzzling over that one. "Uhhh maybe it's to prevent people from playing with the game pushed past 90 degrees?" LOL
Wow so they kick that, which drops the hold relay... Dang.
I want to see video/pic from a 60s operator "turning off" a row!
WANTED: 21 (1946 Duval), NSM Freispiel Sieg Super-Match, 1972 Bally Continental Bingo slot machine
backglasses wanted: Star-Jet, Fire Queen, Fairy, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Strider, Varkon, Dark Planet, R-Type (w/ship), Quantum, Ninja (Sega)
blog -- collection -- Pinball Women Ottawa -- Ottawa Pinball Map -- ratings

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by Delroy666 »

Yeah, it's pretty surprising (even "shocking", you might say :roll: ) to see the line voltage go so many places before the transformer. Maybe Ontario Hydro wasn't being completely unreasonable to require an iso in every game. Note to self: when starting a game like this, don't lean on the (grounded) pinball machine next to it with your other hand, just in case. ;)
Have: Vids: Joust, Dig Dug, Centipede, Pac-Man, Donkey Kong Junior, Missile Command CT, Galaga, Scramble, Crystal Castles, Double Dragon, Time Crisis, Race Drivin', Bad Dudes; Pins: Comet, Firepower, Trident, Magic, Alien Poker
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by sylvain »

Delroy666 wrote:Maybe Ontario Hydro wasn't being completely unreasonable to require an iso in every game. Note to self: when starting a game like this, don't lean on the (grounded) pinball machine next to it with your other hand, just in case. ;)
Some background info here, basically to address locations with no ground or a broken ground prong in the plug or extension cord:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic ... ransformer

Basically there was a good reason to do this.

I do not know if Hydro Ontario reacted to some electrocution injuries/casualties at the time, or if this was just made mandatory from an electrical safety's perspective back then.

...I usually leave these transformers IN the games I own or fix - I feel these isolation transformers bring additional safety to the players and to me as a tech
(even if they do add a bit of weight). Fixing old tube radios/gear also requires having an isolation transformer for safety during repairs.

- Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cdnpinballer »

Do we know what manufacturer/titles/years the 'kick start' games were made by/between?

I'm wondering if my Teacher's Pet is a kick starter. I don't recall there being an ISO transformer in it. Maybe I should move the ISO transformer over from my Grand Prix? Would that be recommended/necessary for safety?

Side Note - BTW Sylvain, your hypothesis about furry friends being in my cabinet with the straw/hay remnants was bang on 100% correct. There were some droppings in there along with the straw... :FP: I took the lower panel with the motor, relays, steppers etc...out of the game and have given the cab a deep cleaning. The lower panel is now on the workbench waiting its own deep clean... Such fun it is cleaning up a rodent cage from years past. :FP: :FP: :FP:

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cdnpinballer »

The thing I really dislike about these transformers is they suck hydro whether the game is on or off.

With the game off you hear them buzz and they are warm/hot to the touch so that's why I generally take them out of SS pins and leave then in on EM's (for safety).

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by pinhead »

cdnpinballer wrote:Ok, cool! I usually scrap a couple of these a year from the pins I get in... I for sure take them out of all SS pins..........

Thanks Geoff for 'recycling'.... :)

I am glad it got to be used for the right reason, I try to help out when I can.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by pinhead »

cdnpinballer wrote:The thing I really dislike about these transformers is they suck hydro whether the game is on or off.

With the game off you hear them buzz and they are warm/hot to the touch so that's why I generally take them out of SS pins and leave then in on EM's (for safety).
I had an isolation transformer burn up in my office/workshop a few years ago, it my have burned down my house if I was not here to unplug it.

I use them on my bench for working on monitors, I still use them but I will never leave one plugged in when unattended.

The ones that get really hot are going bad and should be removed/replaced.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cdnpinballer »

pinhead wrote:The ones that get really hot are going bad and should be removed/replaced.
Uhhhh Cait, you may want to check the heat coming off that newly installed transformer.......... :?

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cait001 »

cdnpinballer wrote:
pinhead wrote:The ones that get really hot are going bad and should be removed/replaced.
Uhhhh Cait, you may want to check the heat coming off that newly installed transformer.......... :?
Ha, will do tonight!
And ummmm thanks cleaning the rodent mess out of that Teacher's Pet. ;)
WANTED: 21 (1946 Duval), NSM Freispiel Sieg Super-Match, 1972 Bally Continental Bingo slot machine
backglasses wanted: Star-Jet, Fire Queen, Fairy, Out Of Sight
marquees wanted: Strider, Varkon, Dark Planet, R-Type (w/ship), Quantum, Ninja (Sega)
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by cdnpinballer »

cait001 wrote:And ummmm thanks cleaning the rodent mess out of that Teacher's Pet. ;)
No way would it have entered my home with rodent excrement!!! I wasn't talking about TP. The mouse house was in another game in my garage but thankfully it's almost all cleaned up and smelling nice and fresh now.

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by novaguy »

Correct if I'm wrong but I believe the biggest reason people remove these from games is the fact that they draw power even when the game is off?

Ted

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by sylvain »

novaguy wrote:Correct if I'm wrong but I believe the biggest reason people remove these from games is the fact that they draw power even when the game is off?

Ted
Yes, agreed. Some phantom power is indeed lost as these transformers are connected directly to the wall plug without a switch.
Some people add a switched power bar, or connect their machines to a switched plug to go around this.
Most other people remove these isolation transformers in pinball machines all together.

Another issue I have heard of - those isolation transformers have limited current capability, and may increase the likelihood
of game reset upon flipping both flippers, for some low-voltage sensitive Williams machines (even if bridge, connectors & caps are all good).
But a new after-market plug-in chip/board is now available to remove these pesky resets.

- Sylvain.
Looking for Bally Star-Jet, Capersville or The Wiggler, Williams Magic City, Grand Lizard, Swords of Fury, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron, and a few others.
Collecting & repairing electro-mechanical and solid state pinball machines with quality and care for over 35 years.
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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by PinMeds »

I also remove them in my own personal games, for all of the above mentioned reasons. Ontario Hydro are the only (including California) regulatory body I am aware of that has ever required them in pinball machines, much to the dismay of anyone operating pinball machines in Ontario back in the day. It was _not_ a tax they will have you know. At least back then we didn't have to pay an environmental fee to throw it away at some future date...

The only caution I would advise is that not only did pinball machines require iso transformers, Ontario Hydro in their immense wisdom also required they be installed over a piece of material that was designed to prevent said transformer which would be "on" all the time from catching on fire quite as quickly. The material of choice at the time was of course asbestos, and a very friable (read_bad_) form of it. You'll notice when you pull out the old iso that a bunch of fine dust will rise from the pad below, and when you tear it out, it's even worse.

Not a huge deal if you do this once or twice in a lifetime as a home pinball owner (though I still recommend taking precautions), but if you recondition a lot of games, there is a long term health risk, the stuff is banned and controlled very strictly for a reason. If you’re doing it as a business, the liability is huge. I pay enough workmen’s comp as it is without any claims, and the fines related to mishandling and improper disposal of asbestos are astronomical. In the Ottawa pinball repair & buy sell biz, most of the games we work on from the golden era are set up like this, and while the odds are just as good of seeing an iso/asbestos abortion as a Laniel Automatique tag on the bottom of the cabinet, I won’t touch them unless it’s my own game.

All that to say, when I do it myself, I never rip them apart in my house, outdoors before it comes in is the only way. For personal protective gear I use a true HEPA filtered respirator, and would wipe the debris from the area with a damp cloth, and unless you have a true commercial HEPA vacuum handy (which I do, long story), do not under any circumstances use your household vacuum, it will aerosolize and broadcast asbestos dust every time you use it. Even worse if there are little ones in the house…

Of course, the easy way is to just leave it there. It’s like a hornet’s nest, as long as you don’t disturb it, it won’t hurt you. And you can always use a power bar to shut off a whole row, easier than one at a time anyway, and you get to avoid the whole power consumption burn your house down issue...

Mike
https://www.pinballmedics.ca

Canada Pinball and Classic Arcade Historical Archive: https://pinballmedics.ca/ottawa-pinball-archive/

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Re: Wanted: isolation transformer

Post by Fifty »

What's the deal with Laniel Automatique? I have one of their tags nailed onto the side of the backbox for White Water.

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